PHP References and function returns

Anon

I am writting a large bit of PHP code. It is basically a very modular Portal system a lot better than PHPNuke. The whole thing is object oriented. Basically made up of lots of large object being passed around.

In my code I have one main object called $system. This object comtains lots of other objects, the database object for example. I then have a function in $system that returns the $database object. So if I need the database object in another class all I need to do is something like:
$database = $system->get_database();

This is fine, but the default mode of operation in PHP is to always return a Copy of the $database object. Now I imagine that this isn't very efficient when I am doing this multiple times everywhere in the code, so I was wondering if it was possible to force a return by reference.

What I want to know is, does this work:
class system {
function get_database() {
return &$this->database;
}
}
$database = $system->get_database();
Basically I want to make it look like a normal function call that transparently returns a reference.

Anon

a blanket statement that your site is better than phpnuke... and then following that up with the entire thing is object oriented is kind of an oxy-moron.

from the php main site:
"Overusing OO features: PHP is not an object oriented language, while it
does provide object oriented features, you should always be conscious of the
fact that using PHP's object oriented features will significantly slow down
your code."

a web application isn't like a C++ or VB app... it is run by 1000s of users at once all on your server. if you are making a portal, you are assuming everyone is going to use your site for everything they do, hit it often, and hit it hard.

making it completely OO is BAD. not GOOD. i posted heavily on this in the last article... don't do with OO what you can do just as easily without. it DOES have it place though.

Anon

I didn't post to this forum to get your opinions on whether OO is better than functional programming. That isn't constructive. I am aware that OO in PHP is slower, but it has it's place and in my case I have a very good reason to be doing everything in OO.

So in response to your last paragraph, I do with OO what I can't do without.

You should also notice that I was posting this question in an attempt to make things a bit more efficient.

If you don't have all the facts then you really should just shut up.

Anon

ok... if you are making a phpnuke type site... you are probably planning on distributing it to people to easily install on their servers who are going to expect 2 things... EASE and SPEED.

OO MIGHT add ease to you, and maybe to them depending on how you code it. you could always ensure ease to them even without using OO though. and as stated before SPEED is gone with OO... (sure for most people we are talking .2 milliseconds instead of .1 but portals are notorious high load sites.

to answer your question though, i will send you to the page on the php.net manual describing refernce in full detail. maybe you couldn't find this page while you were egotistically defending your poorly achitected code.

http://www.php.net/manual/en/language.references.php

Anon

I have read that page. I have read it multiple times but it isn't explained very well otherwise I wouldn't be asking. For starters some bugs in PHP means that references don't always work the same way in PHP classes. Did you know that? I did, because I tried to do the way that was discussed in the manual. I also read the user comments and saw other people had had the same problem. Unlike you I value other people experience, and choices. If you don't want to use OO, I don't care, it doesn't affect me. I know the arguments for not using it but I have decided to use it anyway. But seeing you started this argument I will respond to your egotistic assertions.

You argument about not using OO is really a non-argument. If you are that concerned about speed then you really shouldn't be using PHP. You should be using JSP because it is faster than PHP. But wait, that is an interpreted script like PHP and isn't as fast as native code, you really should use C++.

OK I'll use C++, but someone else will tell me that C is faster than C++, which is true, so I shall use C instead.

But wait, Fortran is faster than C. It is probabably the fastest high level language that is currently available. But we could go faster. Lets program the whole thing using machine code.

Where do you want to stop? Where is your argument relevant? Why do you use PHP? It is an interpreted language, and while it a very fast one, it is still slow. The Slashdot website uses Perl, which is even slower, and yet probably one of the biggest portal sites on the web.

I personally would stop your argument back at OO PHP. If you really want speed improvements then your .1 of a millisecond isn't the place to find it. A faster server disk is the better place to start. More server memory is always good, slightly faster processor will make a big difference. Hell if you want to go all the way use a server farm.

So tell me when is your argument relevant, and not just you trying show off to people that you have a tiny bit of knowledge that makes you think you have the right to tell everyone they should do things your way?

I personally am going for EASE, not just for your Joe Shmoe web administrator, but for the web developers as well. What about the developers who need to add more functionality to the site? Do you have any idea how hard that is to do with Nuke? I do, it's a pain in the arse! PHPNuke is a prime example of "poorly achitected code." It is rigid and easily broken. Just installing one of their so called "add-ons" has caused some major problems for me, including a broken registration system. So I decided to code things correctly, safely, and easily. OO gives you that, hence my choice. So please take your head out of your arse and go and comment on things you are more informed about.
I look forward to your response. I like watching people make fools of themselves.

Anon

Leigh wrote:

Unlike you I value other people experience, and choices.

next line:

If you don't want to use OO, I don't care.

seems sort of oxymoronical that you value experience, yet don't care about mine.

yes i have designed portal systems and currently only code for sites that get millions of hits a day. yes i fully understand the entire slashdot server and code setup, and have read up on countless other high load configurations such as anandtech and hotornot type sites. my hard disks are all under 3ms seek with minimum SCSI ultra160. i only use gigabit. every server in my farm of 30 4u rackmounts is at least dual 1.2 athon MPs with 1GB pc2100 ddr registered ecc ram. for main servers i use sun E450 quad processor machines. hopefully by now you realize that i DO value that millisecond. now that your hardware issue has been answered, i'll move to all your software comments.

for many applications suck as photo rendering and other server intensive applications i DO write in C and notice significant speed increases. going to machine code or fortran for such things as manipulating jpegs would be extremely difficult and not worth the development and code maintanence time required. thus the cost/reward ratio is too high, so i stopped at C.

i would LOVE to see the benchmarks that JSP is faster than PHP. i have benchmarked it with identical code on my own and PHP was much faster.... also ZDNet did some. here are their results if you don't believe me (and by now i'm not sure you believe anyone):

PHP pumped out about 47 pages/second
Microsoft ASP pumped out about 43 pages/second
Allaire ColdFusion pumped out about 29 pages/second
Sun Java JSP pumped out about 13 pages/second

JSP is fastest?! this was not an idividul betchmark, this was a wide array of tests. proving that PHP is the most versatile server side scripting solution. you might have seen a JSP provided benchmark of something it does well. <humor>maybe a sucking benchmark?</humor>

so i use php, again, because of cost/reward. very easy to install... very easy to manage... very easy to code... very easy to update.

php is interpreted, yes... but you can use compilation caching tools such as zend accelerator. basically the result is compiled code updated whenever the file is updated. i personally get about 3x more performance using this, and achieve near static page serving speed. the OO benchmarks say that it is about 3x slower than straight interpreted php. (so my code runs 9x faster than OO everything else aside)

my point: COST / REWARD is all that matters.
new hardware... relatively low cost, relatively HUGE reward. do it.
apache... free / best. use it.
php... free / best. use it.
php accelerator... low / 3x performance. buy it.
C code in certain places... if cost of instantiating the C program is more than if you were already using a php script anyways and just did it in there, then there is no reward. if the reward is small, the cost is relative complexity, don't do it. if the reward is high, do it.

now on to your case specifically:

you are using OO, when you could just be using different scripts as modules and treat it like a class, but not use OO. the cost of OO code is high (3x performance loss) the reward is simplified code. if simplified code is highly required, then do it, but only if you can't do the same thing and maintain code simplicity without using OO.

problems if you COULD have maintained code simplicity without OO, but refuse to switch:
1) you'll get to a point where you peak out the server... you could use the same server and serve 9x as many pages if you had gone non OO with zend accelerator. this doesn't matter if this is just for you, but if you release it, people would rather change software than servers (for the same cost/reward reasons above)
2) someone will take your product, FIX IT, and then release it and you wont be the maintainer anymore and your ego wouldn't like that. (plus people from step one will switch to step 2 software)
3) thus, no one will use your product, and all your work will be in vain. thats fine if you don't care, or are building it for yourself.

slashdot uses perl... perl is slower. when asked why he uses it, his response was 'yeah, i know, but perl is cooler'. i'm assuming you just think OO is cooler, and thus any amount of reason will anger you similar to the slashcode authors. if you just WANT to use it, then use it, and jack off to your code if you want... i don't care. if you want an honest suggestion on a project i am assuming you are going to distribute and advertise as portal software (= high load), stay away from OO for simple tasks and data management. stay away from OO for simple tasks and data management. stay away from OO for simple tasks and data management. your real goal should be caching as much stuff as posible. use a mixture of DHTML, javascript, cookies, PHP to even further minimize server load. all i have done for the last few weeks is optimize perfectly fine corporate intranet software (the ultimate portal)... and that is what i am doing. if caching odd data in cookies, and using javascript and DHTML to generate the page rather than a single database query, and it can be done faster, then i do it. and no, it could not be done faster in C at that point.

for(;😉 echo "stay away from OO for simple tasks and data management";

Anon

So what is your point? You admit that it is faster to use other languages than PHP? So by your argument I should not use PHP at all because I will be able to get a faster implimentation using another language like C, and like you said "I DO value that millisecond" and yet your choice in language doesn't show that. You should be coding Everything in C because it will get you that extra millisecond.

Another thing you said "but you can use compilation caching tools such as zend accelerator. basically the result is compiled code updated whenever the file is updated. i personally get about 3x more performance using this, and achieve near static page serving speed."

The Zend optimiser is free, and will speed up your PHP code. The Zend Cache costs money, but it will also speed up your applications.

So again, what is your point? Yes OO is slower, but there are ways of improving the speed for Free!
I never said that I didn't consider your point. I considered it before I even started coding it, but I decided that it isn't a big deal, because it isn't a big deal modifying your server to run just a little bit faster.
Other people's experience, like those at Slashdot, show that using a slightly slower coding practice isn't really a big deal.

You seem think I am arrogant just because I believe my code is better than PHPNuke? I believe I am entitled to believe my code is better than PHPNuke. After all, I wrote it to be better. I am sure that Francisco Burzi, who wrote PHPNuke to be better than SlashCode will tell you that Nuke is better than SlashCode. Does that make him arrogant? No, you should be proud of what you have done, you have to believe that you have done a better job other wise there is no point in doing it.
In the end, if someone wants to use my code for their site good. If someone wants to develop for it Excelent! That is why I wrote it. It was never designed for me to be the sole developer, I always wanted other people to become involved. If someone wants to take my ideas and write a whole new version, so be it. I think I will live, after all, that is why I started this project, because I liked the ideas behind PHPNuke, but I got tired of trying to deal with it's rigid coding style and interface. I got tired of the constant security alerts that the author seems to just want to ignore and pretend aren't there. Why I just got another one today. There is no fix for it because even a month after it was brought to his attention he is still pretending it isn't there and hasn't created a patch, I will have to work one out myself and patch about 10 sites myself.
You believe I am arrogant, I believe you are arrogant because you seem to think that your opinions are more important than everyone elses. I have told you many times, I considered your point, but don't believe it to be a problem, there are solutions for it. I believe that OO has made my job 10 times easier, and made my code 10 times more flexable, and that is worth a slight speed hit. Like you said, the reason why you don't use Fortran and Machine Code is because "going to machine code or fortran for such things as manipulating jpegs would be extremely difficult and not worth the development and code maintanence time required"

You also seem to think that my ego would be deflated if someone else was to code a "better version". Really, it doesn't bother me. One of the big purposes of the GPL is to stimulate ideas and development. If someone else believes they can do a better job so be it. If that is going to bother me then I am probably in the wrong business. I also accept that people like you will not like it. I don't care. You do not have to use it. I have explained my reasons for doing things the way I have.

Finally, how many portal sites really get a million hits a day? 5%? Surely the 5% who do get a million hits a day can afford to buy decent hardware.