Micro Payments?

spriggig

Micro Payment Poll

mrmufin

Yeah, right, micro-payments, my ass! Not unless you're "sharing those micro-payments" with those of us out in here in user-world that provide both the content and the assistance...

Weedpacket

Yeah, sure. A penny - after collection costs, currency conversions, taxes, bank fees ...

And how much of that penny goes to people who offer advice?

spriggig

Your frustration is obvious. Those of you who provide useful advice and answers should be rewarded. But, if those of us who need the advise and answers are left to choose, you'll get nothing and you know it (hence the frustration).

Micro payments are fair in that everyone pays the same and cheap enough not to drive everyone away, but of course some will leave.

Banner ads don't work, even some sort of grass-roots campaign to click every ad you see just get the site owner money would fail, because the owner of the ad would realize no real benefit from the "click-throughs" and eventually even that miniscule revenue will dry up.

Another option is subscription in the way that Consumerreports.org does it. Give the plum advise to those who pay and give enough soild answers to entice those who don't. I know it works (for them anyway), because it is the only site I've ever paid to subscribe to.

I think I'm raising a subject that should be talked about by the users of the site. If we ignore it, it will go away. This site and ones like it are valuable, but no one is paying (enough) for them, at least that is the impression I get.

Is this board viable? Does it bring in enough to break even? Is there some way to reward those who provide the content?

Micro payments provide the pool of money, modal "Was this helpful, Yes, No" dialog box provides the measure of value for distributing the funds?

burgenet

Of course I would prefer not have to pay a dime for anything in life or more specificly related this site. I have used it many time for solving problems, getting advice, and finding information as have we all. The fact does remain though that nothing in the world is free - I mean water costs more per gallon than gas (bottled).

Every single time you post a message, read a message, view the hompage or move on this site it costs the admins money. Not directly, but in the form of bandwidth - I am betting their bandwidth is not free. This is of little signifigance at first, however when you have millions of visitors it really starts to add up. I can not say how many visitors this site gets, since I don't know, but I'd imagine it's a pretty large amount.

So when you put it in context - they are actually paying for you to be here and for you to move around and view the site. I think a small subscription or micropayment wouldn't be asking to much - especially if the alternative is a "CLOSED" sign.

I have managed a few websites and I some of them were very bandwidth intensive. I know how fast that can add up. Plus I know how little banner ads and affiliate links bring in. Half the time they don't even pay half the hosting fee.

Really the only way a website can be profitable to breakeven is to "require" contributions from visitors. People simply will not give unless they absolutely have to. Of course you have people who spend days simply to break into a site that costs less than a meal at McD's - but hey, who hasn't. I have never had luck with contribution based sites, I am doubting this site would find any difference. When I polled my visitors a lot of them said "sure I'd contribute", for somereason only one or two found the link.

I guess my long boring point is there really is no alternative. I would prefer see a subscription as opposed to a per-click-fee, though I rather find the idea intriguing & fun and may experiment with some scripts - I just feel it is impractical. Not because of fees and conversions as stated, for you don't post a $.05 transaction, rather you keep that stored in a database and add to it then when it passes a threshold, you then complete the transaction. Micropayment systems merely document and log small transactions then post them once they are large enough.

Anyway that is just my thoughts.

mrmufin

There are options other than 'Pay-per-click' (which, IMHO, just plain old sucks, and would drive me outta here faster than anything else) and 'subscription' services.

With all due respect to burgenets post that banner ads tend to generate marginal revenue (at best), and yes, someone has gotta foot the bills for hosting and administrative costs, perhaps other options could be explored...?

Perhaps a sponsorship agreement from corporate sources which have benefitted from PHP?

Perhaps a quid-pro-quo agreement with businesses, wherein administrative and hosting costs are exchanged for PHP-based programming services?

Perhaps donated hosting and administrative services from educational institutions? I could definitely see a forum such as this, as well as its administrative and maintenance issues, fit appropriately into a computer science curriculum.

I'd be willing to bet that subscription or pay-per-click options would drive away far too many people, especially when there seem to be so many folks participating herein that provide more 'solutions' than 'issues'. If I found out that some fat 'suit' was driving home in Ferrari that was paid for by folks who freely contributed their time and talents... well, I'd take that as a real dis-incentive to offer any more free support.

All this leads to the crux of the biscuit of open source software in general: somebody's gotta pay the bills for the administrators, bandwidth providers and the hardware while the programmers give away the code. The typical solution attempted (RedHat and MySQL AB as examples) is 'give away the product, sell the support.' Which, sadly, is successfully acheived by very few companies.

In a forum such as this, the support can be somewhat of a crapshoot. If I'm going to pay money for solutions, then, dammit, I want definitive answers from competent support personnel and not stuff that starts with, "You might wanna try..."

Oddly enough, one of the reasons that I started using open-source software exclusively is because I find the actual 'support' to be better than any of the 'customer-service' experiences that I've had with Micro$oft, IBM or Sun, and there have been a few, I assure you.

wannasub

There is another micropayment model over here in the UK and europe. It is based on sms (text) messages, the european gsm mobile networks have developed a unique billing method whereby the customer pays for receiving a message and they are charged at a premium rate. This works as an ideal revenue model for many subscription based websites. The problem that the US has is the lack of the technology to allow this.

I am at present setting up as a micropayment provider we need help with investment and maybe the technology we are basing the system on php and mysql to start with.

Regards

Aaron

Weedpacket

Originally posted by spriggig
Your frustration is obvious. Those of you who provide useful advice and answers should be rewarded. But, if those of us who need the advise and answers are left to choose, you'll get nothing and you know it (hence the frustration).

Micro payments are fair in that everyone pays the same and cheap enough not to drive everyone away, but of course some will leave.

I for one am not frustrated about not being paid for my assistance. Partly because I'm already being paid quite adequately for consultancy elsewhere, but mainly because I'm here to assist the community. I don't expect to be paid for volunteer work (at least, not in currency; a word of thanks is generally enough).

What would frustrate me and probably see me leave is if I had to pay to provide that assistance. Not because it would be too expensive, but because (a), it would be too much hassle, and (b) there would be free alternatives elsewhere. What would be the value added?

No, I'm not trying to address both sides of the issue; others are already looking at things from PHPBuilder's side; I'm just picking one view from the side of one segment of the user population.

bobthedog

Sounds like an interesting concept, but it's not one that is ever going to work for many different reasons.

Firstly - a per click basis is non-sensical. Having to pay for every page view seems like you are trying to just push people away from the site - people won't "browse" the site as much anymore (since they have to pay for every page that they are going to click to) and will go directly to content that interests them before getting the hell outta there. Surely this goes against every design and advertising principle that ever existed - i.e. once you get your visitor to your site, make them stay there for as long as possible before they lose interest (or run out of money in this case) and move away to something else on another site (which undoubtedly will be free).

Secondly - as a developer, sites like these are a host of information to me - but I can't say that this site inparticular holds the answer's I want for a particular project which may occur further down the line. If it comes down to a choice between payment, i.e. -

1 - a micropayment system and paying for searches on this site, and undoubtedly clicking through several pages before I come close to the information I wanted (all of which are costing me money) - or
2 - a subscription system and having to pay a subscription on the off chance that there might possibly be (but with absolutely no guarantees) some help available with my project

...or going off to google and searching a whole host of other FREE sites which also might possible hold the solution I need, then I know where my mouse is gonna be headed.

Lastly regards the people who come here and take time out to help other people out there, from beginner to intermediate and even some of the advanced (dare we say "guru") peeps out there. It's a cool feeling to know you've helped some people out, but how many of them are gonna stick around if we need to start paying for this service. At the end of the day - this is just a forum based system, of which there are many out there and many of which are still free.

The obvious answer would be to reward people for their "helpfulness", but this seems like a lot of effort to set-up and maintain, and also rests on the fact that people are going to credit the answer to their query to the correct person, which is then open to abuse. How many threads are started every hour on this system - what would the reward be to make it worthwhile - etc etc... I suppose the point I am trying to make is, this will never work.

Anyhow - just my opinion - probably waffled far too much there 🙂

burgenet

It seems upon review of all the posted comments the primary "Gripe" against a subscription based service is that those people putting in the effort to provide support should not have to pay, and are not willing to pay to provide support for others. That makes perfect sense and should be respected - why should they have to pay to offer their support?

What if the site could be broken into a category of users - those needing support and those offering support. This would allow a nominal fee for postig a support request, yet it would allow anyone to respond with a comment. This would allow revenue coming in from the posting of support requests, without limiting the supporters.

As I stated previously I would prefer the site remain completely free... and there really is no perfect solutions. In a perfect world the people who really enjoy using it and had bucks to spare would send in a few every month. Unfortunately, and fortunately, this is not a perfect world. Though I would not greet a subscription based service with opened arms, I would not despise them for it. It is simply business.
(Income - Costs => 0 || Troubles)

I did like some of the ideas previously stated about acquiring Corporate sponsors or providing services via perhaps dedicated support or custom script development. Perhaps even grants could be sought after, and a non-profit corporation formed (if not already).

vaska

sorry, a penny per click is a completely stupid idea...it is a non-solution...

i have a client (well, ex-client) who has a forum with over 30,000 members surfing and chatting and helping and learning and asking and blah, blah...they have a dedicated crew of moderators managing the people...

they were having a very difficult time because of people showing up and being assholes...so much so that they were going to shut it down...they asked me what to do...

make them pay to play i said...the jerks will leave then...if it doesn't work, shut it down...it was simple...$1 dollar per month...paid in yearly installments...in fact, they went with $2 dollars per month...

they created areas for non-paying members to look at some things...get some information, but not real help from the tech moderators...they created areas for people to get help from tech people...and with less hassles they started offering more information for paying members as well...

last i knew...they were pushing 5 figures A MONTH from the site...and it was no porn or porn related thing...

i might be one of the few...but if i was confident that my dollars were going to the people who are so helpful here...weedpacket, cgraz, ednark (just to name a few) so they could have some extra beers each month i'd pay...and i think many people would not only pay, but they would probably also donate additional funds as well (the afforementioned site gets additional donations quite frequently i am told)...

i've learned a heck of alot from this site (in a very short amount of time)...have had people show me how to do things...and i've had a really great time doing it...i'm a designer...and working with php (and a little asp) has been like learning photoshop again...endless possibilities upon possibilities upon possibilities...it's such creative work...i never knew...and now i'm kind of addicted making little things for myself...

i'm happy to get things for free...but i'd also be very happy knowing that these guys get some extra benefits from all of their good work...it's only fair...there's two cents for you...jv

bastien

I find a big problem with the pay-per-click model, as someone who looks support I could stomach a few cents here or there to pay for the site, but as a contributor, I feel it just wouldn't work. I would not be to pleased about helping posters with solutions when I have to pay for it. Why should I pay to help others? I would prefer to get paid obviously, especially since I just got laid off! 😉

Another alternative might be a donations type model, those that care and find a use for the site and its community could find this more appealing. I for one, am not opposed to this. www.tek-tips.com has recently added this to their site as a way to offset their costs.

A further way to drive this model might be to offer contests to whomever donates to the site...tickets to events, books or other software might entice more users to donate...something tangible in return for the effort of donation. Also consider setting goals for each time period (like $100 per month or whatever is required to breakeven) and showing the progress. Knowing how far to go and how much is left may help convince people to donate.

Corporate sponsorships are also something to be looked at.

Ingenuity is required to make any site a great one, and great sites always end up costing something to run. Time, money and effort. Time and effort are the easiest to give as most of us enjoy helping others. The money is the hardest. People are loathe to part with their cash, and the internet still has that 'It's all free' feeling, though more and more people are becoming willing to pay for content.

burgenet

It seems to me the solution at hand depends on how much is really needed to breakeven. If it is a matter of $100 a month, I would assume that the site get's over 100 visits a month, and if 100 visitors contributed around $1 that would breakeven. However, if the site requires say $1,000 a month. Then it's going to be, almost exponentially, harder to receive enough support.

The problem is that the few people who will contribute will probably be the same over and over. Someone is unlikely to visit the site, get the perfect answer to their age-old question, then leave a nice fat tip in the contribution pile. Rather Occam's Razor will take place (the simplest solution) - Someone will visit the site, get the answer to their age-old question, then leave. Note the missing "fat tip". The problem is that it is easier to click the X at the top right corner of the window than go through the donation steps, plus there are no witnesses to make them feel... guilty. I think if they had to visit the site in person and interact live with the people involved there would be a sense of guilt for not contributing, this is not available in online solutions.

Perhaps guilt is not the best motive, even though it does work. So up to a threshold contributions can be expected. My hypothesis is that the amount they are currently receiving will be roughly the same from month to month. Because it's normally the same people contributing, the ones who come here everyother day to use the site. The problem exists not with them - but the other thousands that come, use the site to solve problems, then leave in a cloud of dust. Using system resources, using bandwidth, and not offering a thing in return. Ever. So you have these 1% loyal users who contribute for the rest of the 99%. That almost seems unfair to the contributors, who probably have well made up their costs in providing support to others.

I personally like the simplest solution offered - a small subscription fee. Maybe as low as $12 a year. A large fee would definetely make me turn to other paths: but I would rather pay $12/year for access to a board filled with rather experienced-PHP-developers that can provide interactive advice on problems, than surfing through the nest of porn ads on personal homepages trying to find the solution on a site with "Last Updated: 03/26/83"...

Anyways, your probably bored of this message so I'll leave you with this thought- if it was you paying for the hosting of the site, a site that provides help to others, wouldn't you want some help?

vaska

just try this...i think you might be surprised...

1 - create a place for people to donate to the site...like through paypal or something...and do make sure people know it's there (but not in an obnoxious way)...make levels...like bronze (tip) $2, silver $12, gold $24, platinum $50...

2 - create a section for people who donate ONLY at or above the silver level (and make sure that the most active helpers get FREE access to this)...in this section provide an organized FAQ of truly useful answers to questions...the same questions are repeated here and i know that every code problem is unique...but i think this is still possible...and provide a few examples of how things might be accomplished...source code to try (there's plenty of it on this site - but it's very hard to find)...

then see what happens...

ask the active helpers to work with you on this experiment by monitoring the people who ask questions in this area (but it in no way requires them to SOLVE people's problems completely - that's not the point of this forum)...and IF it seems like it's providing enough income after say 3 months and that it could work...then come up with a way for people to make a little bit of fun money for their help...

if it doesn't work...stop taking new donations for a members only area but provide the service for those few who paid...and then phase it out...

having seen two people do this before on busy sites, i think you might be a little surprised...and people can still play for free if they choose...but c'mon $12 bucks to have weedpacket tell you how stupid you are today?! the AMOUNT of TIME that is saved by these guys is just amazing...it's a no-brainer...

i'm not an expert on this stuff...but feel free to send me a note if you'd like - studio@vaska.com - and i'd be willing to contribute my services just like the code guys if there was something i could actually provide...ask me...

good luck...jv

feldon23

What if you provide advice (which is occasionally useful), but when you ask a question, it is largely ignored?

bastien

hey feldon,

there may several factors for this...

the question has been asked before and the was no search done to see if it was answered reviously
the people who could answer the question are not online and due to volume of posts, the post gets left behind
you are inuncharted territory and no one knows.
you didn't read the manual

daphreeek

how about just having a subscription (I think the $12 a year is a good amount) and if you dont pay, you cant play.

I have never paid for a site in my life but i wouldn't mind paying a small amount for the content in here 🙂

But also, on top of this, have a part in each members profile (or on thier posts) where other members can vote for really helpful members. Then the moderators can select members that have been really helpful and those members get free subscription. The other thing that this does is encourage people to post replies to help others.

Matt

ednark

hmmm... im not so sure about forcing any amount of payment... but using some payment as a block against rabid posters would be a good idea if that was a problem which i don't think it is

but i wouldn't mind a donation system, sounds like a lot of good people here would bother to donate...

im up around dc where i listen to NPR alot and they aparently do well with donations

but like weedpacket said i don't answer these posts for a living, and this place seems to have quite a dynamic built up already the way it is, so i wouldn't want anyone ruining it by trying to dip into posters pockets

if however if was pay or loose the forum, i can't see any company making the decision not to try a pay scheme wether the poster liked it or not

vaska

ednark is right...

TRY donations...and see what happens...i'm pretty sure that the point of this forum is to help people and not a make a profit...but if there is a risk of losing the forum - you need to try something...in my posts, i was assuming there was some actual NEED to gain some income from the site for whatever reason...

abnfire

If you really want to make money from this site then get money by per
mouse click. try .50 cents per month from each user, so if you have atleast one thousand user registered as .50 per month which comes to 500 dollars per month. it is enogh to pay the hosting company or for bandwidth. paying users get some other great deals, which will make them come again and again, which also mean pay again and again.