Hi guys,

As you may or may not know, Buffy season 7 has started on UPN, and I fear as do many that this will be the last season. I play in a Buffy PBeM RPG on yahoo groups (aggghh lol). I hope to create a roleplaying engine in php, but I am hardly experienced enough to do it on my own, and if I did try and do it on my own I'd never get it done before Buffy ended!

I would like to do it to pay tribute to the show that I have watched for the past 7 years since it graced the television, are there any other fans present that would be willing to participate in the project? This must be a free project because I don't have the thousands probably required to get the help I need.

C'mon people, if you are a true Buffy fan you gotta do it to make sure it stays alive and doesnt die when the show does!

Cheers

    20 days later

    That would be a LOT of work, the code would have to make itself evolve so that you would never have to upate it.

    There are lots of cool thing you could do, like have an open "chapter" system, so people can submit their own events in text files. Kind of like custom levels.

    It would really have to be php/flash or php/javascript to get anyone really enjoying it.

    Good luck finding the help you seek.

      Have you looked at a yahoo group? lol everyone uses them for roleplaying and it looks crap. The only reason people use them is it's convenient because you can email to the group, other than that it's pretty limited.

        Playing is way different than programming... and you are directing your efforts at PHP programmers who 99% could care less about Buffy the Vampire (and most likely have better things to do). I don't think that is a good motivation for many. Ask yourself what skills do you bring to this effort besides being a game player? Are your a strong PHP programmer? Does that skill and experience far outweigh the efforts that others will have to put into it? Or are you asking for others to do the bulk of the work

        What you have is an idea thats already been done. That doesn't mean it cannot be done better, but you should think about what you are getting yourself into and understand it, before asking others to help you. Is it well thought out? Do you know what it takes to do a development such as an RPG? Before you go about gathering a team of people, you should already have analyzed and designed the solution to the problem you are trying to solve FIRST. That way, people will take you for real.

        After you have done that, you need qualified people to do the work including artists, software developers, testers, project management, MIS, etc. Then you need people and funds to promote it - marketing, sales, etc. You would also need funds to build the project and hardware to run it on - nothing is free in this world and you are asking for a lot I'm afraid.

        What does this RPG promise in return on investment in time let alone money for the people who you want to get involved?
        There may be only 2000 people in the world who will be willing to play your RPG. Is that good business? A money losing effort? Will people get compensated for their efforts?

        Sorry for being blunt, but you need to look at and understand the business aspect of software production as well as have the answers that others will pose to you. If you come across as "I don't know what I am doing and I need some help', I'm afraid that won't motivate interest.

        It's not good enough to want to build something just because "it looks like crap". Tell us why it is crap and give detailed examples on how you would make it better.

        I'm just trying to save you time and energy because you can go out and build something and have noone show up at the door when you launch.... or quickly have it die due to a poor business model.

        I'd suggest posting the question on a NNTP news list targeted more towards people with that interest and experience - not in a newbie PHP forum.

        Good luck,

        Kerry Kobashi
        Kobashi Computing

          After you have done that, you need qualified people to do the work including artists, software developers, testers, project management, MIS, etc. Then you need people and funds to promote it - marketing, sales, etc. You would also need funds to build the project and hardware to run it on - nothing is free in this world and you are asking for a lot I'm afraid.

          Well, don't need artists really, software developers? this isnt an executable program dude lol, testers, I can test it myself, project management and mis systems are just the admin web interface ffs lol. Lol it's going to be a free project for all, same as yahoo groups etc is, in fact I could use an existing forum but I like things tailored =] and I have a web server, free as it happens because I have access to one at work.

          What does this RPG promise in return on investment in time let alone money for the people who you want to get involved?

          Wont cost anything, just time, and I didnt say this would be a commital of mass amounts of time, we all have lives lol.

          Sorry for being blunt, but you need to look at and understand the business aspect of software production as well as have the answers that others will pose to you.

          It's not a business its a game..

          There may be only 2000 people in the world who will be willing to play your RPG. Is that good business? A money losing effort? Will people get compensated for their efforts?

          Ok so you don't know how many people in the world that has internet access and are fans of buffy or angel or both do you? lol, try a few more thousand =]

          I'm not trying to do a business here, its a game, simply that, people come onto the site and post their part of a story, I'm not making money out of it, as every other group service is free, so I won't make anything even if I decided to charge.

          and btw, if I wanted to do it as a business I'd do it this way anyways, starting with a DSS and probably an Expert system to bring up possibilities.

            "It's not a business its a game.. "

            You don't get it..... It's a business to someone else with vested interest. Ever heard of 20th Century Fox and copyright/trademark laws?

            I'd suggest checking first to see if you can get expressed permission from FOX before you go out building a RPG based off their copyright/trademark.

            Then, check to see if FOX gave exclusive rights to the existing Buffy RPG creator. You will definitely run into problems with that issue alone. FOX and the creator will want to uphold the integrity of their trademark/copyright.

            Don't think your RPG is a big effort? Like I mentioned in a previous post, there are artists, testers, engineers, etc. How do I know this? Because I used to work in such a production environment.

            You can't just go out and create A GAME based off their characters - you need permission because it is ALL ABOUT BUSINESS.

            By the way, what does this topic have to do with PHP and the newbie forum?

            Kerry Kobashi
            Kobashi Computing

              Sorry, but thats wrong, if I claim that I do not own the characters and that they are property of whoever then there will be no problem, if there was, there would be no buffy rpgs at all. So don't quote law to me =]

              Newsflash, this isnt a production enviroment, its a community of web designers that help eachother out.

              Read above for the bit what php has to do with the newbie forum, its for people that have problems implimenting something with php which isnt a programming language its a web programming language, there is a difference. The reason why it applies is because thats what will empower the website and its functionality.

                When a newbie asks about something that may infringe on someone else's copyright it is the responsibility of EVERY member, no matter what level of php expertise, to comment on the liabilities.

                SOMEONE does own the copyright to the character and concept of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and, as such, ANY unauthorized use of the name in any manner is a violation of this copyright.

                The only exception to this is the "Fair Use" clause in copyright law. And that says you can only use bits and pieces of the work when REVIEWING the work.

                This is NOT a programming issue, it is a legal issue and should be quashed immediately before you find yourself trying to swim upstream in a court of law against Fox's corporate lawyers.

                  Well, I'm sorry but I don't think everyone who has started a buffy roleplay game on any type of PBeM group has asked Fox wether or not the characters can be used, the groups arent hard to find either, so they would have been in court by now if Fox felt it was worth pursuing.

                  Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

                    As you have no way of knowing whether or not I smoke a pipe, I can only assmume you were being disrespectful in a "nice" way.

                    I am 54 years old, and from the tone of your posts in this thread, you are a lot younger (and less experienced in legal matters) than I am.

                    I was simply attempting to advise you of the legal problems that might erupt should you follow this idea.

                    If you choose not to heed my advice, there is nothing I can do about it.

                    But there is no need to be offended what I have to say and no need to get personal in your response.

                    😕

                      I don't mean to be offensive either...but...what I've just said above still stands and I hate people that preach to me without getting all the facts first, thats all.

                        ok asume that they won't law suit u right away.

                        imagine ur game is up and running and going smoothly and very big.

                        Then u will end up in court

                        and u have to pay for all the time it ran when it wasn't so succesfull.

                        So yes there might be other games, they are probaly small, and not used by to many people, so not much money is involved(or perhaps they do have permission). As soon something get's big and profitble, the vultures will smell and come and make sure u get naked.

                          "I don't mean to be offensive either...but...what I've just said above still stands and I hate people that preach to me without getting all the facts first, thats all."

                          I find it very interesting your use of the word "preach". That right there says a lot about your lack of open-mindness and maturity. Don't say you were not offensive when you pointed out that that another individual is on drugs. You didnt even consider thinking about this issue of copyright/trademark law and the affects it will have upon you and the individuals you solicit. I didnt' have to waste my time bothering to add to this discussion, but because your approach raised a flag and I have experience in this area, I decided to chime in to put a different perspective TO THINK ABOUT.

                          People here in this community have a right to know what they are getting themselves into. After all, you initiated this thread soliciting members for development help. You had to expect feedback no matter if it is what you wanted to hear or not. Rather than take things for what they are, you chose to lash out and mock the very people who are trying to assist you. How smart is that?

                          I am simply pointing out the problems you will face trying to create something having existing mass appeal that is copyrighted and trademarked. It's common sense to go out and hire a lawyer to find out more.

                          Irregardless if your RPG is successful or not, Eden Studios (the developers for FOX's Buffy RPG) will have a say on that matter - namely their lawyers. Eden Studio's has EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS to the Buffy RPG. That right cost them money to establish their line of business and whatever users you take away from them affects their profitability.

                          Don't think what you are doing is a large effort? While you are at Eden's website, recognize that there are a number of talented lead developers, artists, and creative professionals, who are involved. Don't think FOX's staff approves and oversees the content to maintain integrity? It is business and people have rights to protect their self-interests.

                          How smart would it be for Walt Disney to let everyone go out and create software based on Mickey Mouse in their own way. At some point, Mickey Mouse's image is destroyed. Do you think they want someone going out and creating software based on their characters performing behaivior out of the norm without their approval? How about Super Mario and Nintendo? Or Jim Henson's Sesame Street and Big Bird?

                          These companies invest lots of money to promote, market, and sell their products. The last thing they want is their characters to be portrayed for something they are not. It is not your right to determine this - its THEIRS. There are laws protecting this interest and if you want to choose to ignore this, go ahead.

                          What happens if your venture is successful? Are you the sole person who reaps all benefits from your "business"? What about all the other contributors who assisted you in your efforts? You cannot even answer that question can you because you haven't put on a business hat. You keep stressing that is not a business. But I strongly disagree. IT IS ABOUT BUSINESS. For anyone going to help you out, they have motivations too - their time.

                          What will happen when word is out that your RPG is a good one? Surely Eden and Fox will be breathing down your throat with their lawyers forcing you to shut off your website. Your efforts and everyone else goes kapoof. Why would anyone want to head into this knowing thats a possibility? Its a waste of time, in my opinion.

                          Why not start off trying to walk rather than run and build a generic RPG game engine first to prove concept.

                          Good luck to you

                          Kerry Kobashi
                          Kobashi Computing

                            oh for christ sake lol, pipes don't often contain drugs, and its a figure of speech dude.

                            It isnt a 3d gaming engine its a web based interface to essentially a message board similiar to what this is with features tailored for basically play by email roleplaying.

                            And just to point out to you how much work those lawyers would have had to do, and as far as I know, none of them have been contacted by such lawyers, here is all the roleplaying games I could find, I wont even try putting fanfic links up here,l they wouldnt all fit in the post;

                            The below link is to yahoo groups with a list of buffy related stuff, I searched for "roleplaying buffy", some of those arent rpgs but you will get my point.

                            http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=roleplaying+buffy&sc=0&sg=0&ss=1

                            Most of not all (theres 72 matches, and thats just with yahoo groups), my search for "buffy fanfiction" comes up with 312, most of those are doing things with the characters that maybe the creators wouldnt like, I dont see them suing the owners of the lists do you? Besides, Joss Weadon, the actual creator of the buffy characters has said himself he regularly when he finds the time reads some of that stuff to see what his fan base is doing with them, what they like, dislike. Theres even a 25 min movie out there called fluffy the english vampire slayer, on the internet, that basically takes bits out of a couple of buffy stories and does their own thing with it, again, they havent been sued.

                            I'm sorry but I think if you do a little research instead of quoting law to me that you'll find I know what I'm talking about too.

                            And also, it's not against the law to create a message board facility tailored for basically messaging, it will be a generic thing whereby anything can be used with it to roleplay, not just buffy, and so what the users do with it will come up to the question of legality, not what I do. Message boards have skins, to change the appearance, all that it will need for it to be a buffy roleplaying web game is an adaption of a skin, and people to use it.

                            I'm not trying to be offensive, but you seem to know a bit about law, but absolutely nothing about the internet and its buffy fan presence.

                            Take Care

                              "I'm not trying to be offensive, but you seem to know a bit about law, but absolutely nothing about the internet and its buffy fan presence"

                              I may not know alot about Buffy the Vampire (nor could give a hoot) but you obviously don't know much about how to direct your focus to the right group. Just what are the odds of having to find one PHP programmer who is a Buffy the Vampire fan on the Newbie forum of PHPBuilder.com? LOL

                              In regards to your statement about me knowing nothing about the Internet, that is stupid. For your information, I have been a software engineer and project manager for 15+ years writing everything from device drivers to developing and managing web applications. I have also owned and operated several websites, used the Internet since 1995, and presently the founder of an Internet startup.

                              Please excuse me for not absorbing myself in the small, yet insignificant world of Buffy the Vampire slayer

                              I have a suggestion:
                              Why don't you ask the administrator of this website to open up a brand new message forum entitled "PHP Development and Buffy the Vampire Slayer". Then see who really cares. ROFLMAO

                              Kerry Kobashi
                              Kobashi Computing

                                The fact still remains, if FOX was THAT bothered about it there would be no such thing as roleplaying groups for Buffy, if they were they would have sued them for breach of whatever! But you havent disputed that, just replied with male banter, so eat that.

                                If you know nothing about the curcumstances of what I'm discussing then don't shove your unknowing mouth into things you have no knowledge of! Get the facts before putting your pennys worth in! Your a project manager, you should know by now to do RESEARCH, no matter what it is or how much your interested in the topic.

                                And showing off doesnt impress me, you have failed to show any logical or objective reason, you see things as black and white, failing to see the other side which I'm trying to tell you. You think that I'm making some sort of video game, and it isnt!

                                Oh, and btw, what are the odds of finding say a painter that likes to surf the internet, and has built his own website, for personal interests learning all about it, you don't know who knows what or does what so don't talk to me about odds.

                                  Sorry, but you have been very rude and not nice. So when that happens to people who I am trying to help, I put them on ignore.
                                  Have a nice day.

                                  Kerry Kobashi
                                  Kobashi Computing

                                  P.S.
                                  What bothers me most about people like you is that you choose to take, rather than contribute. Your original question starting off this thread deserves no answer because its not a question, but rather a request to get someone else to do the work for you.
                                  After reviewing the history of your posts in this community, it's obvious that you provide little contribution other than trying to get others to do work for you. Enough said.

                                    sigh, making yourself look superior and walking off when you cant challenge statements....admit your wrong, no wait you have an ego, scratch that lol.

                                    I have searched the net and have found an interview with joss weadon, the very creator of the characters in Buffy, and here are his views from the following question;

                                    How do you feel about the cultural impact of Buffy? The comics, merchandise, fan fiction, etc?

                                    Whedon: Again, the show was designed to be the kind of show that people would build myths on, read comics about, that would keep growing. So naturally, I'm wicked pleased that it's entering people's consciousness. I obviously can't read [fan fiction], but the fact is there seems to be a great deal of it, and that's terrific. I wished I'd had that outlet as a youngster, or had the time to do it now.

                                    From the horses mouth as it were...roleplaying is basically group fan fiction. I don't want to argue with you....you were the one that came into this conversation pushing legal stuff down my throat that although maybe true I have seen no evidence of any ramifications of roleplaying etc being sued or whatever, most likely you'd get a cease and desist letter, and companies take different views on this. I somehow dont think that a major tv company like fox are going to sue a single fan with limited financial resources, they have nothing to gain from this. The money that they would pay their lawyers would far outway what I'd be able to pay them, or anyone else for that matter, and fair use can be a way out in some circumstances.

                                    PS: What would you have me contribute as I'm pretty much learning php? my knowledge fountain that is NOT? Don't talk so STUPID. I come here to learn, how can I help people with things I have no knowledge of, which is exactly what your trying to do lol.

                                      close this thread???

                                      it starts to show some hate feelings.. or something 😕

                                        yeah someone close it after this, I am in the process of contacting fox right now to see where they stand on it....lets leave it at this, sick of arguing with that 'know-it-all' anyways lol.

                                        And btw, I will be helping in the project, I will be designing the front end, the html and css portion of it, and learning the php side as the project progresses....for your info!