Operating Systems

MrRosary

Wotcha,

Whilst crusing around the formus I noticed that a great deal of people seem to be using various flavours of Windows to work on PHP with.

I know PHP is meant to be portable across platforms and that is one of its strengths.

But I would have expected a greated proportion of Linux users somehow though.

I use both Win2k and Linux to develop PHP personally and all the code i develop under windows ends up on a Linux based host anyway.

I was just wondering what other people do. I much prefer using Linux for PHP unless I have to do something complex like set up XSLT support. (why is that so tricky under Linux and a breeze under windows 🙁 😕 )

MrRosary

GodzMessanja

Probably the reason that fewer people use Linux is that they are used to the windows platform, and don't want to take the time to learn linux.

Also, there is a LOT more links for developing PHP in windows.

I am probably going to work out my linux partition and develop in linux also. It's just that windows is "the thing" and people know how to use it.

Does that answer your question? 🙁

Weedpacket

I think the difference is that Windows users say they're using Windows - because Windows is the exception, not the rule (which would be Linux/Apache/PHP/MySQL). Often, they get horribly bogged down when people try to help them, then say "I'm using Windows 98/NT/XP/FU and IIS/5.0 / PWS. Does this make a difference?" Funnily enough, more often than not it does (what's the Windows equivalent of a cron job again? How do I recompile PHP?)

Also, maybe the Linux crowd tend to be more likely to be geeks who manage to nut out a solution of their own or manage "get" PHP faster because the idea is more familiar to them than to those weaned on menus and icons and WYSIWYG IDEs (not that I'm saying Windows users are generally dumb - it's kinda like the difference between Perl users and Python users).

Compare the numbers of posts in the Windows-specific forum to that in the Linux-specific one. It might mean there are more Windows users than Linux users, or it might just mean that Windows users have more problems. Or, (as I suggested) Linux users reckon themselves to be the norm in this environment and Windows users the exception (and judging from current surveys, they're right).

jmcneese

agreed.

i have to say that, for the record, i've had way more problems getting PHP to work correctly on NT/XP/2000 than i ever have on any *NIX. this is usually due to the fact that i recompile a custom build for apache/php/mysql to suit my needs, on a per server basis, and this is not really feasible on Win32.

why on earth must the php.ini be in %SYSTEMROOT% anyway? :rolleyes:

Sxooter

My theory on Windows versus Linux / Unix is that Unix rewards your experience, so that over time you become more and more productive. Windows seems to punish you (or at least not reward you) for your experience.

I.e. with Unix things are harder up front, but once you figure out how to

tar -xvzf /home/mydir/php-4.2.0.tar.gz
cd php-4.2.0
./configure --with-pgsql --with-odbc
make
make install

it just works for every package. It's not obvious right up front, but the experience tends to transfer from package to package and version to version.

In windows, it feels like a lot of the time you're on a snipe hunt looking for an elusive modal dialog box that's different for each version of windows, or each version of your package or whatever. And at the end of it, you wind up inserting a registry key that looks like 034EDDF-{239453}FEDDA892-13202-AA12AFE

and having no clue why it actually worked, and not being able to reuse that information.

So, often, once people figure out how to compile one package on Unix, they've learned to be semi-independent, and only post questions when they're really stumped.

On Windows, being stumped is kind of the norm, i.e. who's gonna intuit you need to insert some strange reg key to make something work, or what not. So Windows users are used to asking for help right up front, since no amount of hacking skills makes Windows easier to do things like that.

Hence, we see way more questions from Windows users than Linux / Unix. It isn't a question of smart versus dumb, it's how the OS trains you to behave. In Unix there's almost always an INSTALL or FAQ file with the answers you need, in Windows, not so much.

Weedpacket

Originally posted by Sxooter
In Unix there's almost always an INSTALL or FAQ file with the answers you need, in Windows, not so much.

Ah, very true; one result is that Unix users will be more likely to tackle the problem themselves with the documentation to hand, while Windows users are more likely to make a public forum their first point of call - even if it's a problem that could be solved with a quick RTFM.

The difference being due to the fact that Unix users expect to find themselves using the documentation, while Windows users expect to not have to. (Which means of course that Unix documentation gets better over time, while Windows documentation becomes increasingly trivialised and marginalised - which makes the Unix documentation more useful, the Windows documentation less useful, and the cycle begins again.)

Huh, I just looked through all the .chm files I've got on my machine here. The biggest is PHP's (including the user notes) at 5.6MB, the second is POV-Ray's at 4.1MB (it has a lot of images). The entire Windows Help directory on the other hand comes to 3.9MB...

MrRosary

Perhaps the large numbers of Windows users if PHP indicate that it is crossing over sucessfully to that platform.

Could it be people who would otherwise be using some Microsoft based technology such as ASP are choosing to use PHP instead as they find it more attractive in some way.

IMHO a very good thing 🙂

I use PHP on Windows personally as I have to at work. I can persuade my boss that I PHP is better to use than its competitors, the price helps, but I cant persuade him that Linux is better than Windows 🙁

As I use PHP with Apache and MySQL under Windows I find it easy to convert from one to the other. I even use Vim as my text editor under Windows for the sake of "compatability" (Really its because I have spent ages learning the Vim keyboard shortcuts and I am not giving that time up)

What do other Windows / PHP users think? Why do you use PHP instead of its alternatives on Windows?

MrRosary

greg252

I have to say the the reason for so many windows users running PHP is that the idea of "server" has moved from the huge, expensive main-frame to the level of a small lap top. Dev has moved from the office to the home and with just about every consumer computer preinstalled with windoze, it's no supprise that "server" development has moved to the home computer.

With that said, I have to question why people are so quick to jump from editor to editor and not so anxious to try alternate operating systems. As far as dev goes, I think that a *nix enviornment provides stability not available in the win world. Personally, I use os X for ALL of my dev. Sure, there aren't as many graphical tools to code with, but the stablility and ease of use make up for it.

Elizabeth

Originally posted by MrRosary

What do other Windows / PHP users think? Why do you use PHP instead of its alternatives on Windows?

I am a fellow Windows user, and although I don't really have the say in our OS at work, I try to rebel against Microsoft in any way I can. I will never EVER use Frontpage or ASP and it really burns me with some of the sh*t they pull. They only good thing I can think of to say about Microsoft is that Bill Gates donates a lot of money to charity, and in fact the high school I graduated from way back when is now directly benefitting from his donations.

But I digress.

My choice to use PHP/MySQL in developing our website and those of my freelance clients was based on 1) to get away from Microsoft, 2) price 😉 & 3) flexibility and how easy it was to learn.

just my $.02

-Elizabeth

Weedpacket

Originally posted by greg252
With that said, I have to question why people are so quick to jump from editor to editor and not so anxious to try alternate operating systems.

Maybe because it's a lot easier? And has far less impact on everything else they use their computer for?

Weedpacket

Originally posted by MrRosary
What do other Windows / PHP users think? Why do you use PHP instead of its alternatives on Windows?

Because there's no advance guarantee that the server I'll be writing for will be a Windows platform. In fact, the probability is that it won't be.

dalecosp

Originally posted by the original poster 🙂
Whilst crusing around the formus I noticed that a great deal of people seem to be using various flavours of Windows to work on PHP with.

There seems to be some confusion as to what you meant here, at least in my exceedingly finite mind.

Are you talking about the development "Tool" environment (editor) or the development "server" environment...?

😕

largo

so other than Greg no one else is using a bsd / osX desktop?

I've been told by some that X, for the most part, performs better under freebsd than linux. Anyone tried both?

More relevant to the topic, I agree with Sxooter here. Unix is a rewarding experience which helps you appreciate the OS and become comfortable to the point where most issues are a manual look-up or a minor fix away.

It's the little things about windows which drive me insane. Today I had to boot to it to check something and MSN loaded up automatically (Microsoft messenger) -- I started chatting with a friend and the mouse cursor made it's way (without my knowledge) to the output window. A second later, a small window popped up telling "this is where your messages appear".... really?! I was checking the other side of the monitor.

Who exactly is windows aimed at? That's the question. Doesn't matter if it's 2000 advanced server or win3.1, it's 40 million lines of code which do the job poorly, inefficiently and tax the patience of the user to no end.

MrRosary

To clear up any confusion.

At home its Linux all the way.

At work its a little more complex....

My OS at work is Win2K. I have Apache, PHP and MySQL installed locally to test the stuff I create. When I am happy or my boss tells me to "just put it up anyway and see if anyone complains" everything goes onto a Linux server at the hosting company.

So far I havent had any real problems switching between the two once I worked out the common problems with stuff like mail() under Windows.

My main reason for personally choosing PHP.... It seems so much easier to get on with. I can create something a lot quicker in PHP than I can in Java (JSP) Perl, Cold Fusion, ASP etc.

MrRosary

Weedpacket

Originally posted by MrRosary
At work its a little more complex....

A recent job of mine saw me working on site (the (Linux-served) intranet I was developing for was physically disconnected from the Internet). They supplied a desk and PC, of course. >1GHz processor, 60GB hard drive, 512MB RAM; it was running Win2K, and I had a copy of SecureCRT I installed on it....

Most powerful dumb terminal I've ever used.

dalecosp

Originally posted by Weedpacket
Most powerful dumb terminal I've ever used.

LOL! Even you couldn't give it a run for the money??!!

Is 'distributed' computing the answer to all the wasted cycles from everyone who leaves the Winbox on 24/7?? Will seti@home find E.T. in time for another sequel???

Mind mind is racing with the possibilities.... 😃