Beyond PHP and mysql

Bret

What would you say are the most essential tools for professional web development right now? Now that I know php and mysql I'm wondering what I should learn next. I know flash must be somewhere on that list and of course I intend to delve into that area eventually. At this point I do all my html, CSS and php coding manually in a text editor. Am I wasting my time? Should I be using one of the web editors like dreamweaver?

Mordecai

I think you should never use software that you don't absolutely have to use. That is, never use Dreamweaver unless you need to get a page done in 30 seconds rather than a minute. The one written by hand, however, is much more valuable to the coder. (Plus, keep in mind sometimes you're paid on an hourly schedule... 😉)

I don't recommend using Flash... I guess I'm the only one on this board that doesn't love Flash, though. I think it just sucks. Obviously, though, it has its areas.

epimeth

hey! speak for yourself! wait... you did...

I, too hate flash... its pretty, but never worth the wait... even on broadband. its just too flashy for me, but I guess thats why they called it flash...

as for whats next... I reckon you should learn xsl and xql to go along with xml databases. IMO, xsl is much better than CSS for displaying pages with xml content.

I have found that w3schools are extremely helpful as a starting point for learning new web technologies... I'm just dissapointed that they don't have anything for php.

also, wap and wmlscript could be something you'd want to get into. The world is going wireless and those could be good to know.

dalecosp

I figured you'd say you knew some Javascript, and was surprised nobody mentioned it yet. I know very little, but it occasionally comes in handy. It has plenty of downsides, though, mainly the fact that it changes every time they release a new browser. (But c'mon, am I telling y'all something you dunno already?) Also, the penchant some people have for using it so much annoys me a tad.

Wireless stuff...good idea! How "static" do you figure it's going to be, though in the next year or so...new technology has little regard for underlying code, generally speaking...

My next goal is probably to learn C...and whatever the latest CSS is, of course, before that I have to build a house, an office, and file my taxes....

orionblue

I'm surrounded by designers who swear by Flash (and shoot me the evil eye whenever I advise against using it for navigation/intros) and it certainly is in demand - all of my clients want 'things to move'. I would spend more time refining your HTML/CSS skills and maybe touching the surface of flash, it's not very difficult to do basic things in the program.

Am I wasting my time? Should I be using one of the web editors like dreamweaver?<<<

I use dreamweaver to create a layout to test on different browsers/platforms, then add any static content - when it's been tested and approved, I use a text editor to connect to a db or add javascript or whatever. Dreamweaver saves a LOT of layout time, especially when you are dealing with complex visuals design.

But, if you don't know HTML and browser compatibility and have used the WYSIWYG of dreamweaver exclusively, you are a little rusty when you have a bug to fix.

It's never a waste of time getting good at something - it saves time in other places eventually.

epimeth

C is definitely very important... if you want to be a programmer, you need to know that and/or C++ if you're going to program for anything but Windows...

OK, you don't need to know it, but it definitely can't hurt.

Bret

Thanks. Yeah I forgot to mention I know javascript and dhtml (learned at w3schools actually). Out of curiosity, why would a php programmer need to learn C++?? Not that I don't want to learn it or anything...

wooster

i agree that flash is a bit too much - it takes ages to load and is actually fairly limited - i prefer the traditional html/(php) style web page

also - i suggest java as one of the things you might want to learn, it can be used on all platforms and once you get into it is easy to use and very powerful - if you know any C++ as well it is a bonus becasue i think that it links in with java - the only disadvantage about java is that it does not create .exe files, but who cares, just look at zend studio - that is written in java (i think)

dioneo_net

I disagree on that slow part of flash. Any site that uses phrases like 'loading, please wait' sucks. Wait till you get a site that has all benefits of both flash and php.

i agree that php-sql-html-javascript-css is a must, and want to add flash to it as well. when used correct, it is faster than using images. and it can do all the things you can with html-stylepages.

i created a cms for flash, preview on this temporary site that shows you how benificiary it can be to use flash frontend and sql backend. The owner can fill his own site, create and change pages, add stuff to shop and so on. adding images on the fly, mp3 as well.

i think that deserves more than

it takes ages to load and is actually fairly limited

so mind you; there's more 2 explore

jstarkey

Originally posted by wooster
i agree that flash is a bit too much - it takes ages to load and is actually fairly limited - i prefer the traditional html/(php) style web page

Ten years ago everyone was complaining about images on the web. Remember when we had 1200 baud modems and had to wait the same amount of time for a 15k image to load as we do now for a 1 meg SWF? Broadband is still rapidly growing, despite the economy. The wait is getting shorter and the audience is growing each year.

superwormy

Perl.

Perl is still widely used for web CGI, and you see a lot more Perl job positions available than PHP scripting ones...

Bret

What can Perl do as a cgi that php can't?

superwormy

Originally posted by Bret
What can Perl do as a cgi that php can't?

Nothing really. Perl has better IPC stuff, and is much more established on the command line ( which isn't CGI, but worth mentioning anyway ) and has been around for a lot longer, its a bit more mature.

jerdo

Perl can do many things that PHP doesn't normally do. Such as run as a normal user instead of Apache. This is helpful if you don't have root access and need to ssh in to modify files, if the file was created with PHP you would need to create a PHP script to modify the file (unless you are in the Apache group and have the permissions on the file set correctly, or as mentioned before can access the system as root).

Sxooter

Originally posted by jerdo
Perl can do many things that PHP doesn't normally do. Such as run as a normal user instead of Apache. This is helpful if you don't have root access and need to ssh in to modify files, if the file was created with PHP you would need to create a PHP script to modify the file (unless you are in the Apache group and have the permissions on the file set correctly, or as mentioned before can access the system as root).

actually, those capabilities are determined by whether you're running PHP or Perl as a CGI (suexec capable) or as a mod (mod_perl or mod_php) wherein the code is run as the apache user.

One of the things Perl is generally better at than PHP is handling I/O streams. I'm not even sure where to start trying to get PHP to run as a stream editor, although I'm sure it's possible.

Out of curiosity, why would a php programmer need to learn C++?? Not that I don't want to learn it or anything...

The main advantage to knowing C is that you can fix things yourself if they're broken.

Way back when (apache 1.3.4 or so) the htpasswd command would NOT accept a password argument. I was putting a corporate site online that needed to be able to add accounts to the apache server's .htpasswd file, so I went in and edited the apache htpasswd code to accept a password argument. I'm no C god or anything, but it was easy enough to do, and a couple versions later (1.3.12 or so) apache had that feature, almost exactly the same as I had implemented it.

I've also found a couple of bugs in other packages and fixed them, or put in work arounds.

Being able to write PHP is good, being able to troubleshoot an apache module is real job security.

Other good talents to have:

Database design / stored procedures. If you can implement a fair bit of your logic in the database layer, you can often speed up complex database driven apps by a factor of 10 or more. Triggers use stored procs and are extremely useful.

OpenLDAP is a nice package to learn/understand.

Understanding underlying server technologies like LVM or RAID in Linux is quite useful.

ulimit (resource limits)

The Gimp / Photoshop

download and play with htdig, a nice little search engine. The beta can do phrase searching, and it's lightening fast. On a web server with literally hundreds of gigabytes of corporate info, it takes about 1 to 2 hours to index, and results come back from searches in <1 second every time.

bash / et. al. shell programming in Unix.

jerdo

That is true sxooter, but most webservers use PHP as a dynamic library plugin and Perl as CGI so what I said can be applied to the majority of servers out there.

Weedpacket

Hm? I'd've thought the uptake on mod_perl would have been higher. Haven't seen the stats on that though.

Actually I wouldn't be surprised if the CGI usage is higher: Perl tends to get used quite a lot for sysadmining, and having two perls probably seems a bit redundant to most people.

Sxooter

Plus mod_perl is fairly crippled if I rememberate correctifcantly.

jerdo

Yeah, most of the hosts I've dealt with don't use mod_perl, they feel it isn't stable enough. I know I didn't like using it on my test system.

Sxooter

Yeah, mod_perl is almost as unstable as JSP... 😉