My PHP fears for the future

Davidc316

Last night I was reading a computing magazine and I saw an advert for the new Dreamweaver MX. I can't remember the exact wording, but the said something like;

"With this amazing new version of Dreamweaver you'll be able to create dynamic webpages in an instant".

This has got me worried.

You see, I've only been learning PHP for about a week now, but I don't want to waste the next chapter of my life learning this stuff if a program is gonna come along that could've saved me all the effort.

And, I know this sounds a bit prudish but I don't fancy the idea of learning PHP (and it's not easy!) and then a few months down the line any guy off the street can just buy (or download) a program that can do PHP ten times better and quicker than me or probably anyone on this forum! If that's gonna happen then I think PHP learning time would have been better spent taking basket weaving classes.

And remember, it's not as if this kind of thing hasn't happened before. My brother learned raw HTML programming when he was at university back in the mid 90's. At the time it was considered a real skill being able to do this stuff, but now it's totally unnecessary to know HTML and all kinds of jokers are building websites without knowing a single line of HTML programming.

I don't want this same thing to happen with PHP.

Does anyone have any opinions on this?

Weedpacket

Well, until artificial intelligence is a reality and not a marketing buzzword, the art of programming will continue to require natural intelligence. Especially when one is talking about a programming langauge and not a markup language.

Of course, if everything you write is the sort of thing that can be cobbled together from half-a-dozen basic modules like Lego blocks...

Moving this thread to a more appropriate forum.

Norman_Graham

Norman's back ... HTML isn't a programming language at all - it's a layout and style tagging subset - and anyone can learn good basic HTML in a week. Web editors are all very well, but they often do things that you don't actually want and often use proprietary tags which only work in some browsers and are not approved by the W3C. Try using Frontpage for anything at all and you'll see what a mess it makes. Many web hosters don't even accept web pages created with Frontpage.

The beauty of learning a genuine programming language like PHP, ASP (VB, C#), Java, C++, Javascript, Python ... is that you learn how programming languages work and can apply that knowledge to a whole range of programming languages.

Furthermore, using a web editor is fine if you have it installed, but I can write HTML, PHP, Javascript on any computer anywhere (even ancient PCs that should be in a museum) - I just need the most basic text editor imaginable. You can even do it on a handheld or some combination PDA/mobile phones, and indeed I write PHP on a piece of paper while taking the train to work.

It's up to you - I like to know how code works.

Cheers

Norman

Bunkermaster

Originally posted by Norman Graham
...anyone can learn good basic HTML in a week.

Why wait a whole week when 2 hours are more than enough?

😃

Davidc316

Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to know PHP and over the past week or so I've spent about 7 or 8 hours a day trying to learn it. But, does it not annoy you knowing that clueless idiots like me can turn up for the same job interviews as guys like you? We can build the same kind of websites as guys like you. We can do all of these things and yet... we hardly know anything about programming at all!

I only found out about Dreamweaver MX this morning and I have to tell you... it's really put a spanner in the works. I mean, apart from anything else I was kind of enjoying the process of learning PHP. I felt that I was onto something good. Something special. Something that would separate me from the rest of the herd. Sure, learning PHP has been tough, but there was a good feeling in the air! But now suddenly I feel as though I'm wasting my time.

If the best benifits you can think of for knowing PHP are that you can do it on an old computer in a museum or on a train, then I think that's a very sad state of affairs.

You're a talented guy. You've aquired a skill that probably took a great deal of time and effort on your part. But now, all of that skill, all of that intelligence and all of that ability has been replaced with a program that can be downloaded by any guy on the street free of charge.

I see the thread has been moved somewhere else, which is fair enough, but there's one other change that should've been made to this thread- maybe I should've made the title "The tragedy of programming".

Sure, we can transfer our skills to other programming languages... but how long with it be be Macromedia or someone else comes up with another idiot proof program that replaces the need for learning.

Maybe I'm just focussing on the negative too much.

superwormy

Dreamweaver will never be able to generate anything I'd consider 'Dynamic'

To people using Dreamweaver, 'Dynamic' is a buzzword that means flashy little Javascript rollovers and template designs.

Hand coded HTML is still, FAR, FAR, BETTER than anything any moron using Dreamweaver can generate. Dreamweaver generates sloppy code, ( although FrontPage is worse ) that is less-maintainable than anythign hand-coded. And it will never be able to generate PHP code.

So dont' worry :-)

Seriously, if you think that WYSIWYG applications will ever replace hand-coded computer code... you're living in your own little dream-world man. Dreamweaver is a LAYOUT program, not a tool to program. HTML is not a programming language, its a MARKUP language, the concepts behind HTML and PHP are entirely different.

It's apples to oranges man.

Davidc316

Ok superwormy, but have you not checked out Dreamweaver MX? I haven't. But, I've read a few reviews and on the official Dreamweaver site they've got video tutorials that you can download. According to the information I've observed, the new Dreamweaver CAN generate PHP coding for you.

superwormy

Think about this geez, how the heck could you write an application that writes applications for you???

Go read the Dreamweaver MX PHP 'tutorials' on MacroMedia.com, they are GARBAGE. The code it 'generates' is simply a few base templates available through extensions, it isn't actually generating code.

Note to mention look at the example code, its GARBAGE, entirely unorganized and ugly and not even up-to-date for PHP 4.

The template functionality is extremelly limited, and not suitable for anything more than small-scale projects. It's limited to simple templates and form processing. Anyone who knows HTML already can easily figure out how to process a CGI form or to include() a header and footer across the entire site, thats nothing new.

Don't forget also that PHP is MEANT to be easy to learn and easy to pick-up for people. It's a scripting language, it sacrafices speed / efficiency / flexability for ease of use and short development time.

If you want to learn a real programming language that you can be sure will never be replaced, learn C or C++, Perl is another good one.

Sheesh, don't you think if it was this possible and this easy to make something to generate whole coded applications for you C or C++ would have a pretty GUI 'code-generator' for you by now? The language has only been around for, what, 30 YEARS now?!?

Nothing will ever replace true logic programming, problem solving and application design, the only ones of us that need to worry about being replaced by Dreamweaver are the ones who ask questions like ' how do I find a string in another string ' without READING THE FING MANUAL FIRST or who post every single parse error they come across to teh boards asking for HELP! URGENT!

Learn to fricking debug your own code and problem solve on your own for petes sake!

Bunkermaster

Davidc316, no offense intended but if you don't see what we can do more than dreamweaver MX, you should hit the books pretty hard and come back in a couple years.

Most of the people on this forum are experts in their field. They all have specialties in PHP in which they excell. You can't possibly think that some application developed by C++ experts will replace grey matter and creativity. If you do well... We'll have fun at the job interviews 😃

Norman_Graham

Originally posted by Davidc316
If the best benifits you can think of for knowing PHP are that you can do it on an old computer in a museum or on a train, then I think that's a very sad state of affairs.

These are not the benefits of using PHP but the benefits of not using web editors - give me any computer with a 3,5" disk drive and I'll create you a working website which you receive in the post and can load up to any hoster you fancy. I could even include PHP functionality and MySQL if you tell me what password you want. The whole thing will fit on one disk. It won't be pretty, but it'll work. Indeed, I recently read an article about a school teacher in a village in Nepal who buys discarded computer components at the flea market down in the valley and helps his pupils create websites - they make computer cases with wood and create seatings for the mainboard etc using thousand-year old woodworking skills. They connect up to the net with your standard phone cable and make websites using notepad, solid HTML knowledge and bugger all else. Hats off to them.

There's just no substitute for learning the code, my friend. If you like Dreamweaver MX, go ahead and use it, but your man Superwormy is spot on with his assessment - most things that actually utilise the possibilities of any genuine programming or scripting language can't be done with point and click, and Dreamweaver can even screw up HTML, which isn't even a programming language.

Best o luck

Norman

BuzzLY

I just went to Kmart today, and found this really cool kitchen appliance that can chop up any vegetable for you! Chefs around the world better watch out, 'cuz I know how to use a food processor now. I wonder how they feel knowing that there are a bunch of appliances and tools just sitting around at my local Wal-Mart, that anyone can use to cook with?

And doesn't anyone watch late night TV any more??? Ron Popeil has created this appliance that can cook a whole chicken! You just "set it and forget it!" It's so easy!!!

Those 5-star chefs better fear for their jobs -- I think I'm going to apply for a job at The Maissonette tomorrow!

Sound silly, Davidc316? Of course. That is exactly how your arguments sound. If someone could create a tool that generates programs, then why are there University courses teaching programming fundamentals? Believe me, any programmer worth his salt is glad for tools like Dreamweaver MX. They pretty much guarantee job security for them, since most of the stuff created by such tools is so kludgy that eventually real programmers will have to fix the bad code.

So... go ahead and use it, and stop learning PHP. Give me a call when you need help 😃

superwormy

Damn BuzzLY , you are RIGHT ON DUDE!

laserlight

"how the heck could you write an application that writes applications for you"
actually, that should be possible, at least in theory.
'Wizards' in some IDEs do that to some extent, and when it comes down to it, compilers do that to, in a way.

But then it can be seen that machine code coded by hand, assuming it doesnt have too many bugs and is written well, will normally run faster and better than code with the same functionality generated by a compiler.

Likewise, even if Dreamweaver MX does manage to provide PHP support that comes anywhere close to the standard that we can code, the code is likely to be, um, below standard, shall we say? Of course optimizing compilers mean that slightly slower programs are a good trade off for an even slower and bug filled coding process, but if Dreamweaver MX wants to do more than provide simple templates that we can cook up as fast as it can and better, then it must have some sort of 'wizard' as well. This creates even more opportunity for inefficient and simply bad code that the software probably wont optimize very well, if at all.

"...pretty much guarantee job security for them..."
shh, you shouldnt go around revealing our secrets to the lusers 😃

superwormy

'Wizards' don't write code that writes applications... they use pre-built chunks of code to guess at what you want to do. Once you go beyond the scope of the Wizard... you're screwed.

You will never, or at least until we see the real advent of true AI, be able to tell a computer, I want you to build me an application that first spiders the web for webpages, then stores those links, then fetches more pages, then ranks them based on relevance, and finally spits out data to the user. ( Search Engine )

You might be able to tell it, OK, open this HTML page, while there is an A HREF tag in this HTML page, you need to first find the beginning A HREF and then read until the end " or ( space ) and record all those URLs to the database by doing a INSERT INTO table SET url = 'url_you_found' bla bla bla etc...

But at that point..., when you get that specific you're already written the program, just its in human 'syntax' instead of PHP syntax, and you just need a Human => PHP Compiler to change it into machine-readable code. But the LOGIC, thats the important part, adn the human has done all that work!

And compilers don't handle LOGIC, thus don't write applications... they translate already written applications to something the machien knows how to handle. It's like translating French to English.

laserlight

"But the LOGIC, thats the important part, adn the human has done all that work! "

From the standpoint of Davidc316's fears, that is actually quite acceptable.
Dreamweaver doesnt write HTML pages either, the human does that, presumably through some point and click interface.
I've never used Dreamweaver myself since I write my webpages in a text editor, but that seems to be what it will do.

superwormy

Right, but the amount of logic required to draw a fricking rectangle just a tad different from the amount of logic required to parse out and handle an XML document... or even to run through a while () loop...

I mean, I agree, yes, Dreamweaver could be used easily to generate PHP to handle a submitted CGI form, or to echo() output or to include() a file... but thats not exactly complicated logic is it? Learning to include() and echo() are not exactly our goals as PHP programmers are they...?

laserlight

I mean, I agree, yes, Dreamweaver could be used easily to generate PHP to handle a submitted CGI form, or to echo() output or to include() a file... but thats not exactly complicated logic is it? Learning to include() and echo() are not exactly our goals as PHP programmers are they...?

I'm not sure what you are getting at.
Difficulty in expressing logic in a form more suitable for use by the layman might be able to be solved.
Due to the lack of accuracy there will probably be alot of inefficient and redundant code generated though, and bugs are likely too, at least until the technology improves or AI improves.

jllydgnt

Big ups and mad respect to superwormy, laserlight, BuzzLY, Weedpacket, Norman Graham, and Bunkermaster for setting this guy straight. Very valid points. Some of you touched on one concept that I would like to expand upon. Dreamweaver and especially FrontPage are for bobo ass-clowns who don't really know what the hell they are doing. It makes me sick to have to take pages of that sloppy-ass code created by some jackass who won't learn HTML and add PHP to it. I would rather do it myself from scratch with Notepad. Once again, FrontPage is for bobo ass-clowns who are comfortable with Microsoft Word.

superwormy

Amen jllydgnt

Davidc316

Ok, before I go any further can we please change the tone of this thread?

I'm merely a guy trying to learn PHP who happened to read a review today about some software that I've never previously heard of. Already on this thread I'm reading some replies that appear to be quite hostile towards me. None of what I'm saying here is a personal insult towards any programmers. In fact, if anything I'm on your side! I WANT someone to tell me that there will always be a place for good programming skills. I WANT to know that Dreamweaver will never replace PHP knowledge.

I ALSO want to write some more, but my dinner's burning!

Catch you later!

😃