Dreamweaver will never be able to generate anything I'd consider 'Dynamic'

To people using Dreamweaver, 'Dynamic' is a buzzword that means flashy little Javascript rollovers and template designs.

Hand coded HTML is still, FAR, FAR, BETTER than anything any moron using Dreamweaver can generate. Dreamweaver generates sloppy code, ( although FrontPage is worse ) that is less-maintainable than anythign hand-coded. And it will never be able to generate PHP code.

So dont' worry :-)

Seriously, if you think that WYSIWYG applications will ever replace hand-coded computer code... you're living in your own little dream-world man. Dreamweaver is a LAYOUT program, not a tool to program. HTML is not a programming language, its a MARKUP language, the concepts behind HTML and PHP are entirely different.

It's apples to oranges man.

    Ok superwormy, but have you not checked out Dreamweaver MX? I haven't. But, I've read a few reviews and on the official Dreamweaver site they've got video tutorials that you can download. According to the information I've observed, the new Dreamweaver CAN generate PHP coding for you.

      Think about this geez, how the heck could you write an application that writes applications for you???

      Go read the Dreamweaver MX PHP 'tutorials' on MacroMedia.com, they are GARBAGE. The code it 'generates' is simply a few base templates available through extensions, it isn't actually generating code.

      Note to mention look at the example code, its GARBAGE, entirely unorganized and ugly and not even up-to-date for PHP 4.

      The template functionality is extremelly limited, and not suitable for anything more than small-scale projects. It's limited to simple templates and form processing. Anyone who knows HTML already can easily figure out how to process a CGI form or to include() a header and footer across the entire site, thats nothing new.

      Don't forget also that PHP is MEANT to be easy to learn and easy to pick-up for people. It's a scripting language, it sacrafices speed / efficiency / flexability for ease of use and short development time.

      If you want to learn a real programming language that you can be sure will never be replaced, learn C or C++, Perl is another good one.

      Sheesh, don't you think if it was this possible and this easy to make something to generate whole coded applications for you C or C++ would have a pretty GUI 'code-generator' for you by now? The language has only been around for, what, 30 YEARS now?!?

      Nothing will ever replace true logic programming, problem solving and application design, the only ones of us that need to worry about being replaced by Dreamweaver are the ones who ask questions like ' how do I find a string in another string ' without READING THE FING MANUAL FIRST or who post every single parse error they come across to teh boards asking for HELP! URGENT!

      Learn to fricking debug your own code and problem solve on your own for petes sake!

        Davidc316, no offense intended but if you don't see what we can do more than dreamweaver MX, you should hit the books pretty hard and come back in a couple years.

        Most of the people on this forum are experts in their field. They all have specialties in PHP in which they excell. You can't possibly think that some application developed by C++ experts will replace grey matter and creativity. If you do well... We'll have fun at the job interviews 😃

          Originally posted by Davidc316
          If the best benifits you can think of for knowing PHP are that you can do it on an old computer in a museum or on a train, then I think that's a very sad state of affairs.

          These are not the benefits of using PHP but the benefits of not using web editors - give me any computer with a 3,5" disk drive and I'll create you a working website which you receive in the post and can load up to any hoster you fancy. I could even include PHP functionality and MySQL if you tell me what password you want. The whole thing will fit on one disk. It won't be pretty, but it'll work. Indeed, I recently read an article about a school teacher in a village in Nepal who buys discarded computer components at the flea market down in the valley and helps his pupils create websites - they make computer cases with wood and create seatings for the mainboard etc using thousand-year old woodworking skills. They connect up to the net with your standard phone cable and make websites using notepad, solid HTML knowledge and bugger all else. Hats off to them.

          There's just no substitute for learning the code, my friend. If you like Dreamweaver MX, go ahead and use it, but your man Superwormy is spot on with his assessment - most things that actually utilise the possibilities of any genuine programming or scripting language can't be done with point and click, and Dreamweaver can even screw up HTML, which isn't even a programming language.

          Best o luck

          Norman

            I just went to Kmart today, and found this really cool kitchen appliance that can chop up any vegetable for you! Chefs around the world better watch out, 'cuz I know how to use a food processor now. I wonder how they feel knowing that there are a bunch of appliances and tools just sitting around at my local Wal-Mart, that anyone can use to cook with?

            And doesn't anyone watch late night TV any more??? Ron Popeil has created this appliance that can cook a whole chicken! You just "set it and forget it!" It's so easy!!!

            Those 5-star chefs better fear for their jobs -- I think I'm going to apply for a job at The Maissonette tomorrow!

            Sound silly, Davidc316? Of course. That is exactly how your arguments sound. If someone could create a tool that generates programs, then why are there University courses teaching programming fundamentals? Believe me, any programmer worth his salt is glad for tools like Dreamweaver MX. They pretty much guarantee job security for them, since most of the stuff created by such tools is so kludgy that eventually real programmers will have to fix the bad code.

            So... go ahead and use it, and stop learning PHP. Give me a call when you need help 😃

              "how the heck could you write an application that writes applications for you"
              actually, that should be possible, at least in theory.
              'Wizards' in some IDEs do that to some extent, and when it comes down to it, compilers do that to, in a way.

              But then it can be seen that machine code coded by hand, assuming it doesnt have too many bugs and is written well, will normally run faster and better than code with the same functionality generated by a compiler.

              Likewise, even if Dreamweaver MX does manage to provide PHP support that comes anywhere close to the standard that we can code, the code is likely to be, um, below standard, shall we say? Of course optimizing compilers mean that slightly slower programs are a good trade off for an even slower and bug filled coding process, but if Dreamweaver MX wants to do more than provide simple templates that we can cook up as fast as it can and better, then it must have some sort of 'wizard' as well. This creates even more opportunity for inefficient and simply bad code that the software probably wont optimize very well, if at all.

              "...pretty much guarantee job security for them..."
              shh, you shouldnt go around revealing our secrets to the lusers 😃

                'Wizards' don't write code that writes applications... they use pre-built chunks of code to guess at what you want to do. Once you go beyond the scope of the Wizard... you're screwed.

                You will never, or at least until we see the real advent of true AI, be able to tell a computer, I want you to build me an application that first spiders the web for webpages, then stores those links, then fetches more pages, then ranks them based on relevance, and finally spits out data to the user. ( Search Engine )

                You might be able to tell it, OK, open this HTML page, while there is an A HREF tag in this HTML page, you need to first find the beginning A HREF and then read until the end " or ( space ) and record all those URLs to the database by doing a INSERT INTO table SET url = 'url_you_found' bla bla bla etc...

                But at that point..., when you get that specific you're already written the program, just its in human 'syntax' instead of PHP syntax, and you just need a Human => PHP Compiler to change it into machine-readable code. But the LOGIC, thats the important part, adn the human has done all that work!

                And compilers don't handle LOGIC, thus don't write applications... they translate already written applications to something the machien knows how to handle. It's like translating French to English.

                  "But the LOGIC, thats the important part, adn the human has done all that work! "

                  From the standpoint of Davidc316's fears, that is actually quite acceptable.
                  Dreamweaver doesnt write HTML pages either, the human does that, presumably through some point and click interface.
                  I've never used Dreamweaver myself since I write my webpages in a text editor, but that seems to be what it will do.

                    Right, but the amount of logic required to draw a fricking rectangle just a tad different from the amount of logic required to parse out and handle an XML document... or even to run through a while () loop...

                    I mean, I agree, yes, Dreamweaver could be used easily to generate PHP to handle a submitted CGI form, or to echo() output or to include() a file... but thats not exactly complicated logic is it? Learning to include() and echo() are not exactly our goals as PHP programmers are they...?

                      I mean, I agree, yes, Dreamweaver could be used easily to generate PHP to handle a submitted CGI form, or to echo() output or to include() a file... but thats not exactly complicated logic is it? Learning to include() and echo() are not exactly our goals as PHP programmers are they...?

                      I'm not sure what you are getting at.
                      Difficulty in expressing logic in a form more suitable for use by the layman might be able to be solved.
                      Due to the lack of accuracy there will probably be alot of inefficient and redundant code generated though, and bugs are likely too, at least until the technology improves or AI improves.

                        Big ups and mad respect to superwormy, laserlight, BuzzLY, Weedpacket, Norman Graham, and Bunkermaster for setting this guy straight. Very valid points. Some of you touched on one concept that I would like to expand upon. Dreamweaver and especially FrontPage are for bobo ass-clowns who don't really know what the hell they are doing. It makes me sick to have to take pages of that sloppy-ass code created by some jackass who won't learn HTML and add PHP to it. I would rather do it myself from scratch with Notepad. Once again, FrontPage is for bobo ass-clowns who are comfortable with Microsoft Word.

                          Ok, before I go any further can we please change the tone of this thread?

                          I'm merely a guy trying to learn PHP who happened to read a review today about some software that I've never previously heard of. Already on this thread I'm reading some replies that appear to be quite hostile towards me. None of what I'm saying here is a personal insult towards any programmers. In fact, if anything I'm on your side! I WANT someone to tell me that there will always be a place for good programming skills. I WANT to know that Dreamweaver will never replace PHP knowledge.

                          I ALSO want to write some more, but my dinner's burning!

                          Catch you later!

                          😃

                            Sorry, didn't mean any offense :-)

                            Oh and btw...

                            There will always be a place for good programming skills.
                            Dreamweaver will never replace PHP knowledge.

                            :-P

                              Ok. Sorry about the ten minute break but I left something in the oven and my kitchen went on fire! (the things I do for PHP! 😛 )

                              Anyway, that's cool superwormy. You were starting to get me a bit paranoid there and I'm glad to know you're not gonna beat me up.

                              Back to the conversation....

                              Just a couple more points I want to make.

                              Just the other day, on one of the forums here at phpbuilder.com, someone said to me (something like) "Hey, that's some pretty good java script you've got on your site!" and they generally seemed to be expressing how impressed they were with this website that I'd built. Anyway... I don't know a single line or Java and I basically said to the person, sorry but I think you're mistaken- there is no java on my site.

                              But, sure enough, someone checked out the source code for my home page (and then copied it onto the forum) and SHOCK HORROR- there it was!!! Java script!

                              It turns out that the software I had used has some kind of vibe going where you point and click (I think it was for an image rollover or something) and without you even being aware of it, it puts some java script on your site.

                              So, there you have it! The point I'm making is that, maybe there are some cases when you can get idiot proof programs to write scripts for you. Is that not a good example?

                              And finally...

                              on a slightly more positive note, I can tell you that since my first post I've had a chance to try out this Dreamweaver MX for myself. The verdict? It's was a NIGHTMARE to use! I think I was even more confused with that than I was with my PHP scripts.

                              So, to Hell with it- I'm going back to my "Learn PHP in 24 hours" book. From what I can tell, learning this Dreamweaver MX would probably be even more of a struggle than learning PHP!

                                Sorry, Davidc316. Didn't mean to offend you. I know you were just asking, not telling. I'm just venting about a situation at work. But seriously, if anyone ever plans to do any real-deal web programming, they first better be able to develop static pages without the aid of FrontPage, Dreamweaver, etc. That's my opinion.

                                  Well Jlly, I can tell you, you've got my total sympathy.

                                  I mean, the work issue in particular is one that I think is a real shame. I can talk from experience here cos a few years ago I used to run a small webdesign company with my brother. Incase you're wondering, he built and I just walked the streets trying to sell the things.

                                  Anyway, this way back in 1998 and back then (at least where I live) there wasn't too many people on the streets who knew how to build decent websites. It was probably as much of a skill as being a plumber or a joiner.

                                  But now of course, that's all changed. Now a days pretty much anyone can build a reasonably sucessful site without any real skills at all. It's all point at click. At least, that's the impression I get.

                                  But the one Ray of light (if the people on this thread are correct) is that by buckling down and getting to grips with stuff like PHP, then maybe guys like us will be able to stay a step ahead of the rest of the herd.

                                    Yeah, I mean anyone can build a simple website, but ask that anyone to build a simple search engine... or a shopping cart... or whatever else custom you want built. Sure you can use some pre-fab script set, but as soon as you need to customize it, or your company out-grows the current implementation, you're screwed.

                                    If its a custom application, you have the freedom to edit and tweak and redo parts of it that arn't fitting to your specific application.

                                    I personally know this from experience... I work for a company that sells custom printed clothign and embroidered clothing, custom patches, etc. Before I started, the company bought a pre-fab already built CGI shopping cart called Shopsite ( WORST PROGRAM EVER! ) and now we're tied into it. Problem is, about 50% of the application isn't relavent to us, and it makes EVERYTHING a NIGHTMARE to manage.

                                    But we can't change the program itself to make it more fitting, and we can't abandon it now 'cause no-one wants to invest the time or money to build something custom. So instead we WASTE MONEY trying to make-due with what we have.

                                    We went with something akin to Dreamweaver, and for a half-year it was great. Now we've out-grown it, it's impossible to manage, invested tons of money in it, wasted tons of time, and can't get away from it. Pre-fab scripts and Dreamweaver GUI are great when you're a mom-and-pop group whose website rarely changes and never grows... but once you get beyond that...

                                    If we had gone ahead and spent the time to learn the logic and shopping cart concepts and built our own, we would save eons of time and valuable money... we have probably 2 full-time jobs right now which basically serve just to work around the system we bought that doesn't work as it should.

                                    As far as that JavaScript... rollovers are really simple :-) Dreamweaver / Frontpage allow Javascript rollovers through simple pre-built scripts that do just that... rollovers :-) All they do when you tell them to make one is substitute image names into a pre-fab Javascript template.