Sorry, Davidc316. Didn't mean to offend you. I know you were just asking, not telling. I'm just venting about a situation at work. But seriously, if anyone ever plans to do any real-deal web programming, they first better be able to develop static pages without the aid of FrontPage, Dreamweaver, etc. That's my opinion.
My PHP fears for the future
Well Jlly, I can tell you, you've got my total sympathy.
I mean, the work issue in particular is one that I think is a real shame. I can talk from experience here cos a few years ago I used to run a small webdesign company with my brother. Incase you're wondering, he built and I just walked the streets trying to sell the things.
Anyway, this way back in 1998 and back then (at least where I live) there wasn't too many people on the streets who knew how to build decent websites. It was probably as much of a skill as being a plumber or a joiner.
But now of course, that's all changed. Now a days pretty much anyone can build a reasonably sucessful site without any real skills at all. It's all point at click. At least, that's the impression I get.
But the one Ray of light (if the people on this thread are correct) is that by buckling down and getting to grips with stuff like PHP, then maybe guys like us will be able to stay a step ahead of the rest of the herd.
Yeah, I mean anyone can build a simple website, but ask that anyone to build a simple search engine... or a shopping cart... or whatever else custom you want built. Sure you can use some pre-fab script set, but as soon as you need to customize it, or your company out-grows the current implementation, you're screwed.
If its a custom application, you have the freedom to edit and tweak and redo parts of it that arn't fitting to your specific application.
I personally know this from experience... I work for a company that sells custom printed clothign and embroidered clothing, custom patches, etc. Before I started, the company bought a pre-fab already built CGI shopping cart called Shopsite ( WORST PROGRAM EVER! ) and now we're tied into it. Problem is, about 50% of the application isn't relavent to us, and it makes EVERYTHING a NIGHTMARE to manage.
But we can't change the program itself to make it more fitting, and we can't abandon it now 'cause no-one wants to invest the time or money to build something custom. So instead we WASTE MONEY trying to make-due with what we have.
We went with something akin to Dreamweaver, and for a half-year it was great. Now we've out-grown it, it's impossible to manage, invested tons of money in it, wasted tons of time, and can't get away from it. Pre-fab scripts and Dreamweaver GUI are great when you're a mom-and-pop group whose website rarely changes and never grows... but once you get beyond that...
If we had gone ahead and spent the time to learn the logic and shopping cart concepts and built our own, we would save eons of time and valuable money... we have probably 2 full-time jobs right now which basically serve just to work around the system we bought that doesn't work as it should.
As far as that JavaScript... rollovers are really simple :-) Dreamweaver / Frontpage allow Javascript rollovers through simple pre-built scripts that do just that... rollovers :-) All they do when you tell them to make one is substitute image names into a pre-fab Javascript template.
I was one of them that told you there was javascript on your site,
and i also told you it was a Macromedia program that generated it, and yeah, Dreamweaver did do the javascript, but all it was
was some rollovers, well that is simple enough to do with a point and click, but come on, building dynamic sites with point and click php gui's, LOL
anyway, let them develop wizards, and let people who don't care
use them crap wizards to "do" the code for you and they won't
have to think, and when it comes down to the client asking for something that the gui can't do, which won't be that far into the imagination, they can call on real programmers to do the work,
hell if there wasn't crap code out there, how many of use would
have a hard time finding something to do
my . 02 cents
Just while we're on the subject(ish) of Dreamweaver and Dreamweaver-generated scripts and pages; in the job I'm on now, there is in the scope a bit about how the pages are supposed to be "developed in Dreamweaver", 'cos apparently "that's what web site designers use".
Now me, I don't care what "web site designers use" and neither should anyone else, so long as the site works validly. Fact is, I've gone through several hundred kB of HTML, Javascript, and server-side scripting (not in PHP, as it happens) so far and haven't once even started Dreamwever - 'cos none of the stuff I'm doing - not even the HTML - can be done in it (well, perhaps the HTML could, but do I really need to use Dreamweaver to write "<title>Worksheet List</title> <script TYPE="text/javascript" src="javascript/dlist.js"></script>"?).
There is talk (yeah yeah, there's always "talk") about getting some designers along to provide glitzy interfaces for everything, but given the amount of stuff that has already been produced the fact is that their culture will have to adapt to service us.
In some small way, I think this discussion is akin to concerns many printing companies had when desktop publishing became so accessible to the common man through software such as Word, Wordperfect, etc. Many printing companies felt like they would become obsolete if people could suddenly print their own brochures and business cards.
Obviously this didn't happen.
I don't think there is a substitute for real expertise, and if it takes learning Dreamweaver just to keep yourself current and marketable then so be it. If an employer tells me I have to use Dreamweaver, then I'll use it to open a new document, use it for anything HTML I'm too lazy to code myself such as tables, and then type the rest in the "Source" window of Dreamweaver.
Fact of the matter is, even though programs like FrontPage and Dreamweaver exist, if you don't know anything beyond that, your pages will surely show it.
And besides, learning PHP is fun, so what the heck. 
-Elizabeth
You're right! I suppose it is fun (in a strange and slightly sadistic kind of way).
are you microsoft people... ? or dreamweaver employees... 
em.. in my point of view...
dreamweaver is good or permitted for people who just start trying to build website, personal website, static site..., have lot of money to buy..., have time to download and test..
well, i certainly encourage people to try dreamweaver... backpage... or any other wysiNwyg apps...
i really hope that many people will stick to that apps...
maybe i should put an ads in my site to encourage people to try dreamweaver... well, if anyone goes to forum... or whatever events, please... please promote the dreamweaver to everybody on macromedia behalf... they will be glad and me too! ...
I think the only thing David is afraid of is spending weeks learning code when he could achieve what he wants in one day. However, I think he has seen the light and is even now knuckling down to multiple hours at the screen with a nice 750-page PHP primer in his eager hands, resisting the temptation to double click on that Dreamweaver icon.
Doesn't it just make you feel all warm inside to know that you've saved another soul from cyberdamnation?
The web is love
Norm
You nailed it in one Norman!
The bottom line for me is that the other day I blew my last 20 quid on a how to do PHP book and I was a bit freaked out at the thought of a skint guy like me throwing my money, time, love and effort down the drain, when all along I could have pressed a magic "go" button and saved myself the hastle!
I suppose it's safe to say there IS no magic button. At least, not yet.
Anyway, that wraps up this thread for me. The next time you hear from me will probably be when I'm begging for some help with a mega simple bit of coding that all of you guys could probalby do in your sleep!
Toot toot!
PS- Norman... thanks for the advice you gave me in that email. A day or two ago it never occurred to me that the guy from Glasgow was you! I had it in my head that Norman Graham and the guy I emailed were two different people. So, I'm sorry if I've been repeating myself with you lately.
PPS- I know- it doesn't make any sense to me either!
:p
But David, if you do have access to Dreamweaver, it might not hurt just to learn it. Yes, it's a crutch and it's no substitute for learning PHP or even HTML at the core, but it can also be a real time saver for even the most experienced programmers. You just have to pick and choose what you use it for. So you don't necessarily have to consider it an "either/or" decision. I also think that the more you know, the more it can help you later on in life... so you really can't go wrong with what you're doing 
Good luck to you!
-Elizabeth
For what it's worth, I use dreamweaver4 to make the basic layout of the pages for my site. Playing with tables seems far easier with a wysiwyg editor over notepad. After that is taken care of, I don't use it for anything else. I'm slowly teaching myself php by jumping into the deep end and trying to make a web app with a database backend. I'm using some php text editor for everything else.
As for clean code, I don't really care about that at this point in my case. I'll get it working first, then worry about cleaning up the code.
As for clean code, I don't really care about that at this point in my case. I'll get it working first, then worry about cleaning up the code.
alot of people say this, but when they have it done, the say, "Well, it works, why go back and screw it up by trying to clean it up", and trying to clean it up after writing it is much harder than writing clean code in the first place
Yeah, as soon as you get into a semi-big complicated project, clean code is a MUST. Otherwise, you'll spend hours and hours of your time trying to debug because of simple parse errors which you can't find cause your codes a mess.
Not to mention, if you'reever in a situatio where more than one person is working on the same project, you're co-workers will kick your @$$ if you write crap code.
Yeah, I was a bit vague with that. By cleaning it up, I mean cleaning up my overall coding skills, not a specific app. Basically I want to learn the rough stuff to the point where I can get things working. After that I can polish future applications while I'm writing them.
Listen to superwormy about sloppy code. My main beef with wysiwyg editors (esp. FrontPage - I would take a full-on kick in the crotch if it would make FrontPage disappear forever) is that the HTML they generate is usually really sloppy and nearly unreadable, which is bad when you are trying to add PHP to it.
you are a guy right?
i wouldn't take a full on kick in the crotch for anything, except......
maybe......
a......
hmmmm............
nope, wouldn't do it
ROFL, I agree with stolzyboy on that one :-)
And I can speak from experience there too, I've been there, done that, ( not by choice, martial arts class ) NEVER want to do it again :-)
dreamweaver MX is meant for the buisiness taht doesn't have any developers just simply html coders and graphic designers it will allow those to use basic PHP knowledge and allow them to have some form of dynamic site with basic PHP interaction - fromsomeone who is just starting to learn PHP I could see why this would worry them -But use PHP as a gateway into programming and always expand on your skills and you will be fine.
Contrary to how some people are treating you in this thread your conerns are real in this economy where companies are always looking at cutting cost usually the first thing to go is staff that can be replaced with a piece of software. This will allow some shops to do that. Your concern is real and is understood.
I was totally serious.