ethical dilemma

[des]

Greetings, good people of the PHPBuilder Forums. I've actually been active here for a while under a different user name, but (I think) you'll understand why I'm posting this under a new one after you read it.

My boss caught wind of a zany marketing idea that worked for one of our competitors, and (s)he is absolutely convinced that it is the best possible way for us to market our (fairly new) business. Here's how it works.

I (lucky me) become a member of various tech-related forums (like this one) and become a regular poster.

After a few weeks, I create a second account and start asking questions that give my first user an opportunity to make a pitch for our company.

Not only do I think this is dishonest, I think it's silly and ineffective. But my opinion means nothing.

I'm willing to do the occasional silly/ineffective thing for the sake of satisfying my boss. That's what bosses are for.

As a developer, I feel like I'm polluting the Web when I create a site that uses proprietary markup or only runs on Microsoft platforms (as I had to do quite often in my previous job). What I'm being asked to do now, I find, frankly, unconscionable.

My boss won't budge on the issue. So how would you handle this if you were in my position? I have a mortgage (i.e. the proverbial "bills to pay") and I definitely need medical insurance. That kind of rules out the ol' "Take This Job and Shove It" routine. Jobs in this sector aren't exactly in plentiful supply.

To many people, I suspect this would seem like a minor offense that would hardly be worth risking one's job over. It's not like I'm being asked to "cook the books" or anything. Among members of this forum, however, I doubt that I am the only one with a strong desire to maintain the integrity of the Web in general and, indeed, of this very forum.

So the question I pose is this: What would you do in my position?

Thanks.
des

p.s.
I just noticed the pHpLords.net thread. Just wanted you to know I'm not that guy 🙂.

[Weedpacket]

Hmm ... astroturfing ... old propaganda stunt, dates back to well before there were forums to do it in....

You could create a third poster that accuses the other two of being the same person trying to pull the stunt... 🙂 (especially if it means the sysadmin ends up banning the whole lot of you.) The thread that results might provide a legacy of failure to show to others who come across this idea.

Be ham-fisted enough about your company plugs on boards (like this one) that don't allow advertising that they get moderated away.....

Or just get mixed up about which poster is which and wind up having them make each others posts. That will get it spotted.

It just sounds as though sabotage is the way to go if you're position is as you describe it (can't do it, can't avoid it).

And start trawling through the situations vacant again (don't forget to come clean on any still-active accounts when you leave).

[Elizabeth]

I can personally speak from both sides, as I used to be one of the "black hearts" in marketing... hence the reason I'm no longer on that side of the world. Life is different for those in marketing and either you love it or you hate it. The truth gets bent so far sometimes you think it's going into a mobius strip, and you're constantly under pressure to expand the business- no matter how you do it (the ol' ends-justify-the-means type of thing).

On the other hand, it is marketing we have to thank for continuing to keep the company's business strong and keep all the employees busy. Without creative minds like those, most businesses wouldn't survive and we would all be a bunch of dorks sitting around a table staring at each other, talking about who can down a piece of cold pizza the fastest.

While I think the intentions of your marketing professional are good, (that, coupled with the fact that this ploy worked for your competition which is a major marketing slap in the face), we all know about the road to hell. And as a developer, I don't know that I would want my reputation on a board such as this to be trashed so readily... you may need to come back here (or another techie board) someday for a legitimate reason, and that will be a little difficult if you've been banned.

My suggestion is this: perhaps use some diplomacy and let your marketing person (boss?) know that the idea is definitely a creative one and while you think it'd probably work, it might sound better if it really came from two different people. You might explain to him how forum registrations work (is he a techie too?- if not, tell him forums are really clamping down on spammers so they aren't allowing anyone to sign up under another username or some damn thing like that)

But perhaps he could be the one to "answer" the questions that "you" pose. I mean, who would be better suited to give the ins and outs of the company's services better than him? (or so you lead him to believe).

This would only work if he really has the time and "know-how" to do this.. some bosses don't want to get involved in delegated projects 😉.

This way, if someone gets banned, it will be him, not you. If someone looks idiotic, it's him not you. If someone gets accused of spamming, it's him not you. You were the mere passerby who happened to ask a few questions. And then perhaps he will see how forums really work.

If he doesn't want to get involved and still wants you to do it yourself, ask permission to perhaps use his email account and name to post the "answers" - maybe he would go for that instead, as that would allow him to "get the responses firsthand..." and you still have the satisfaction of knowing that he is the one to get banned, not you.

Marketing people are an odd breed- especially upper-level ones. They can promise the moon to someone and then drop it in your lap to deliver. But, just like a woman 😉, you can't live with 'em and you can't live without 'em.

[edit]
You could also try sending a message to the mods beforehand to let them know what's really up - if'n you have no other choice in the matter. Perhaps explain to them that it's nothing personal- just doing your job - and then beg for forgiveness 🙂
[/edit]

Best of luck to you, des!

-Elizabeth

[ksandom]

I'm gonna take a slightly differnt approach to answering this from the others. My initial reaction was "well, if only one person is doing it, it won't be too bad" ... then the other 99% of my brain kicked in to remind me that if the advertising is successful everyone will soon be doing it. As you mentioned, this would significantly degrade the quality of the services provided.

In the previous posts I only noticed personal loss that would occur. However there is a huge risk to the company. If the company got discovered doing this, the publicity would be extremly bad. Take Microsoft for example. They did some stupid things a few years back and they are still paying for it. If a company gets this type of publicity, the public will remember for quite some years. A large percentage will avoid that company for many years. People are often not very forgiving for things like this and often try to make people they know conform to their views. You only need to look at Microsoft to see what I mean. They are starting to turn their image around after many years of effort, but it hasn't been easy for them and they are still having to work hard at it and will have to for quite some time. Dodgy tactics like this can and often do backfire. Just because it is working for the compeditors at the moment, doesn't mean they won't get caught by people "that matter" later on.

Your boss needs to be alerted about the possible consequences. In the country which I live in, we have a commerce commission which heavily monitors and controls what happens in the market place. I'm sure that a company acting in such a way would get at least heavy fines for such activities if not harsher punishment. The commerce commission could use things like "mis-representation" etc. I've studied a little bit on international law, I'm a bit rusty, but I'm sure there were equivilents of many laws in many countries such as the USA which could be used in this instance. I don't know if there are equivilants of commerce commission in other countries.

If the laws of one country do not make your bosses intentions illegal, the chances are they will be in another. There have been many successful court cases where people have in a different country to someone on the internet who did some for of bad practise, have been able to prove that they were effected by these bad practises. Thus serisous court action was taken against people who thought they were safe (If you want examples just ask.).

I think you've done the right thing by getting other peoples opinions this issue. I truly commend you for that.

The best case is to convince your boss not to do it, but if it's going to happen, these other suggestions that other people have made such as the sabbotage or getting your boss to do it under their name etc are probably your best option. A variant of that is do make it look like it's under your bosses name without your bosses permission, however this increases your legal risk.

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by ksandom
The best case is to convince your boss not to do it, but if it's going to happen, these other suggestions that other people have made such as the sabbotage or getting your boss to do it under their name etc are probably your best option.

I will agree with this; it would be much better for everyone if it didn't happen at all - but like I said, if you can't avoid it; at least make your objections clear and that you're only doing it under protest. And documented, which you've already done so on this forum 🙂 in case it all goes to custard and your PHB tries to blame you; not that I'm saying that you would be made a scapegoat if it did, but it's nicer to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

Of course, if you do go for sabotage and things get messy, the mess might be blamed on the sabotage, not the flaws in the concept. You'd be hard-pressed to show otherwise then if you're scapegoated. (In that case you could cite, as ksandom does, Microsoft's experience in 1998 - a link like http://www.google.com/search?q=Microsoft%20astroturfing might help 🙂.)

[Elizabeth]

I don't want to downplay your dilemma at all, because I do think it's a big deal. But I'm not quite sure this would merit criminal investigation of your company for misrepresentation, etc. If that were the case then every spammer who ever lived would be prosecuted. It's not like you are somehow collecting all the forum members' personal information then mass emailing them with a "hey, I saw you on PHPBuilder, you might be interested in this..." kind of an email. We're talking 3-4 posts per forum, right? A back-and-forth with yourself. Call me crazy, but I don't think that's illegal. And what if you had an uninvolved friend post the questions, and you answered them? Is that illegal? Sneaky, maybe but I don't think it's illegal. In fact, if we look at some of the posts already here in PHPBuilder, they ask opinions about recommending good webhosts, etc. How are we to know that it wasn't all a big setup there?

No, it's not a good idea because it does compormise the integrity of the forum and goes against the main mission of why we're all here. But do I think you and your boss will end up in jail and your company blackballed in the technology industry and bankrupt? Hardly.

I think the collective governments have better things to do.

just my $0.02.

-Elizabeth

[Merve]

I'm probably not one to give you any advice, because the good people of PHPBuilder know that I'm bad with advice, but here it goes.

If possible, you should try to explore alternative solutions for this dilemma, such as other forms of advertising.

If that doesn't work, what you could do is create a third account that tells everybody what you're doing with the two other accounts. But that's a really stupid idea...

I know personally that this form of advertising does not work at all. A few years ago, I used to be on this thing called HabboHotel. (It's really dumb.) I used to try to scam people out of bits of computer data called furni (you could furnish your virtual room). So I created two accounts. I would control one in one window, and the other in the other. I would make the first one say something like "I'll double your furni" and the second one would say "Wow, he did for me too!" Not only did this scam not work, it made realize that I was being a big jerk and that I shouldn't be doing this... It also made me quit HabboHotel and never return.

You're right. This is an ethical dilemma, but I'm sure that there is a solution out there...somewhere.

[elToro]

It just sounds as though sabotage is the way to go if you're position is as you describe it (can't do it, can't avoid it).

The problem with sab-o-tay-jee (as Bugs Bunny would say) is that it

1) Still pollutes the forums
2) Still damages your company's reputation

...the very things you'd like to prevent -- though it may succeed in making you feel less personally responsible for the forum pollution (albeit arguably more responsible for tarnishing your employer's reputation).

[ksandom]

... But I'm not quite sure this would merit criminal investigation of your company ...

Looking back, I aggree, I think the legal issues were a little over the top to begin with. However, where they still hold merit is that only one person needs to complain and be able to justify that they have been disadvantaged by dishonest means, and this could become a reality.

Email Spamming started out small and fairly innocent. It has grown to what we know today from two things:
-someone was successful, so other people started doing it also.
-it's easy to get into "just one more won't hurt" which leads to no line being drawn.

Spamming is now being legislated against in many countries. I can't remember the figured, but I think the fines were along the lines of $5000 per spam message per email account. I can't remember if that was the legislation or what companies were successfully sueing offenders for.

My point? Small things like this do get out of hand, they do annoy people and eventually they do lead to serious consequences.

I'm not trying to scare you. My goal is to give you some ammo to argue with your boss with. While what I have said is quite extreme for the current situation, the possibilities are quite real. This is on the internet which people access from all over the world. You arn't just restricted by local laws, people are sucessfully taking leagal action against people in other countries for breaknig laws which only existed in country of the person taking action. International law is a real mess right now, so you have to be careful.

A side thought, is there a way of tricking your boss into thinking you have done it when in fact you haven't? Like having a board sitting somewhere that looks like a popular board, but is in fact one where just you come to do the dead.

[ahundiak]

I'd suggest you find out what your boss's boss thinks of the idea. That might be enough to put a stop to it right there.

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by elToro
The problem with sab-o-tay-jee (as Bugs Bunny would say) is that it

1) Still pollutes the forums
2) Still damages your company's reputation

...the very things you'd like to prevent -- though it may succeed in making you feel less personally responsible for the forum pollution (albeit arguably more responsible for tarnishing your employer's reputation).

The problem with accepting the task wholeheartedly without protest is that it still

1. pollutes the forums, and

2. damages your company's reputation.

On the last point, of course, if they're that insistent on going ahead despite objection, it would seem as though they don't regard their reputation as important.

I use "can't avoid it" advisedly - if you can avoid it, the matter becomes moot (at least for you; they may try and rope in someone else instead, and the whole cycle begins again.)

It is an ethical bind; you (des) say that your opinion is unimportant: is your boss (or your boss's boss - good idea if there is one) aware of your opinion and the existence of your dilemma? If they don't feel your ethical wellbeing is relevant or important, then that puts their own and/or the company's ethnical standards in doubt, and I would again start looking through the situations vacant: certainly there's nothing wrong with finding out what is out there even if you do decide to stay.

[elToro]

I'd suggest you find out what your boss's boss thinks of the idea.

Through my special psychic connection with des, I'd say it's the CTO of the bloody company that wants to do it so badly.

[mystrymaster]

We actually had people at an old internet company whose sole job was to post questions in one forum and answer posts from the others who did this on other forums.

I didn't agree with the tactic then and I still don't agree now.

That being said I do feel that you need to do what is asked of you even if it does bother you ethically as long as you aren't being asked to break the law.

I would simply suggest that you go to sites that you don't specifically frequent yourself or even simply state that you made the posts and they must have been deleted by a mod.

You could also pm the mods here and ask them to send you a nasty email advising you to stop what you are doing. Thenm do the same at each board you go to.

[des]

Thanks for your suggestions, everyone. We'll see what happens....