questions that bug you?

pohopo

okay, i am full of questions today.

so i am trying to help people in the other forums and i am finding certain questions that irk me. Here is one I have.

A question where they cut/paste 5 pages of code and have one sentence saying it does not work.

What questions irk you?

weekender

"please do this for me"

i just want to shout "what were you THINKING?" at these people. they think we just do their work? i tell them "if you're stuck, come up with a basic pseudo code set of instructions, refine it, then ask us what functions to read up on for each step in the algorithm"

LordShryku

More troubling than that is the people who just make the code and paste it in for them (though I'm sure I'm guilty of this on some occasions too). But there's certain people on here who have some decent post counts that I see this from constantly.

A question that irks me around here is "Here's code. What's wrong with it?". Well, I don't know. Maybe you should tell us what error it's giving you and we could be of some help.

Shrike

Originally posted by pohopo
okay, i am full of questions today.

so i am trying to help people in the other forums and i am finding certain questions that irk me. Here is one I have.

A question where they cut/paste 5 pages of code and have one sentence saying it does not work.

What questions irk you?

More than 10 lines of code usually makes me reach for the back button 😉

Originally posted by LordShryku
More troubling than that is the people who just make the code and paste it in for them (though I'm sure I'm guilty of this on some occasions too). But there's certain people on here who have some decent post counts that I see this from constantly.

I am guilty of this on occassion, usually when it's something that I have an interest in (I am still learning too 🙂)

Of course my biggest gripe are those who don't bother to use the PHP BB tags, and yet insist on pasting pages of crap...I mean code.

Drakla

Definitely huge pages of black on gray text make me immediately roll my eyes, but I'm pretty affable to most posts until I've had few pints, which in real life makes people who don't booze say I'm the best advert for drinking they've ever seen - but sometimes I can turn into message board disaster man and just be a complete and utter tosser.

Quite a lot of posts I think "Oh - Mr(s) X is good at this stuff" and I'll just retreat straight away.

I'm definitely guilty of gift wrapping code and giving it away with a shiny bow, even doing javascript.

But I love it when people snap and tell somebody they're basically useless. Somebody did it recently in a thread I was over-helping in.

Weedpacket

Originally posted by LordShryku
A question that irks me around here is "Here's code. What's wrong with it?". Well, I don't know. Maybe you should tell us what error it's giving you and we could be of some help.

It just does nothing 🙁

I blame Microsoft. The case I make is that since Microsoft has been pushing so much money into schools and school education programmes (with the proviso that said schools spend a certain proportion of the cash on Microsoft products), and since those "computer literacy" programmes (which I'm sure you've all seen) never cover anything more profound than "designing newsletters in Microsoft Word" or "checking your email with Outlook Express" - we've ended up with millions of people thinkin they're computer literate when they haven't got the foggiest idea about computing.

Consider a MS-style "car literate" person. MS has welded down the car's bonnet, saying "you don't need to see this", the users are reduced to looking at the blinkenlights on the dashboard, and maintenance is reduced to putting petrol into the tank occasionally. Even I remember to draw the dipsticks or look at the windscreen washer tank now and then.

And these millions of people who don't realise how little they know about what they're doing are far outnumbering the people who do.

I mean, how difficult is it to follow the existing guidelines?

I still maintain that it should be necessary to pass an exam to post here. So that people can have no excuses about "oh, I didn't know" when they double-post, or whack up a dirty great wodge of unformatted and unhighlighted code, or just say "It doesn't work" or.... It would also slow down the advertising bots.

Elizabeth

Originally posted by Weedpacket
I still maintain that it should be necessary to pass an exam to post here. So that people can have no excuses about "oh, I didn't know" when they double-post, or whack up a dirty great wodge of unformatted and unhighlighted code, or just say "It doesn't work" or.... It would also slow down the advertising bots.

Nice idea, weed, I like it. At least then it would require them to make some effort before just posting (or PMing a mod thankyouverymuch) their troubles in hopes that the code fairy would bless them with the answer.

It's people who don't have enough respect for the forum's members to read the guidelines, exhaust every possible resource, or even simply google for an answer before posting. Those are the people I have a problem with. Do they think their time is more valuable than ours? That they can't waste it on attempting to solve their own problems?

I don't know if I blame MS, Weed - at least not entirely.
<social rant from a mom>
I know I sound old, because I am, but I think it's indicative of our society - at least over here in America. It seems that people have this thought that everyone else owes them something, that they don't want to have to work for anything, or figure things out for themselves. They don't want to be independent- they want anything that takes any sort of effort to be handed to them on a silver platter. And the thing that kills me is that they don't care that they look stupid. They don't care when the answer is right in front of them and has to be pointed out to them. They have no pride.

I say we can't blame MS entirely, because I see this all the time in my other job which is completely non-computer related. People want to be spoon fed, and they don't want to have to think. How else can you explain the ginormous success of the "for Dummies" books?

I think that computer professionals are beginning to experience this general state of apathy firsthand, and here's where we can blame MS. In my experience, the programmers I know would DIE before admitting defeat. They would find the answer to the problem if it took them until 3:00 in the morning. A revelation in the wee hours of the night was a profound victory, was it not? And if they did have to break down and seek the assistance of a fresh pair of eyes, they kicked themselves when the answer was finally discovered.

Now that the general public is oozing into the coding community, these newbies haven't figured out the "programmer's code of honor" as it were... they think they are still in the rest of the world.

Yes, it feels good to help someone out. Especially if they really appreciate it. But I'd like to say to the others: don't disrespect me by not taking the time to try and solve your problem on your own, don't think that anyone else owes you a solution, and don't call me a bitch because I didn't help you out.
</social rant from a mom>

Wow, I feel better. Who wants a beer?

planetsim

Originally posted by Weedpacket

I still maintain that it should be necessary to pass an exam to post here. So that people can have no excuses about "oh, I didn't know" when they double-post, or whack up a dirty great wodge of unformatted and unhighlighted code, or just say "It doesn't work" or.... It would also slow down the advertising bots.

So shall we vote on it. All in favour of those to take an Exam raise hand.
/me raises hand

The ones that dont even have me read are the ones with millions of spelling errors (although i do read them just incase there not from english speaking country, most of them do spell correctly however) and the ones that constantly use short things like u for u and teh, 4 for a.

goldbug

Originally posted by Elizabeth
It seems that people have this thought that everyone else owes them something

Don't you owe BuzzLY and me some drinks? 😃 😃 J/k (...running from the LART)

Weedpacket

Originally posted by Elizabeth
It's people who don't have enough respect for the forum's members to read the guidelines, exhaust every possible resource, or even simply google for an answer before posting.

And after posting. You may have noticed that my responses are generally of the Socratic form. Sometimes it works: in doing the research required to answer my question, they figure out the answer to their question, or at least they're able to understand ther situation a bit more clearly. But it is predicated on the assumption that if they don't understand the question or suggestion straight off, they will do some study and try and learn (and if they learn something else on the side, all the better). It is not predicated on the assumption that if the poster does not understand the question or suggestion they will just immediately hit reply and say "😕I dont understand. could you give me an example".

It's also predicated on the assumption that the poster - who is presumably attempting to write a program - has certain programming skills, e.g., is capable of logical thought. C'mon people, think! The computer's not going to do it for you!

I don't know if I blame MS, Weed - at least not entirely.

Maybe you're right; the culture here seems a bit different, so the contrast is sharper. I guess MS is just tapping into the attitude you describe and rewarding it.

In my experience, the programmers I know would DIE before admitting defeat. They would find the answer to the problem if it took them until 3:00 in the morning. A revelation in the wee hours of the night was a profound victory, was it not? And if they did have to break down and seek the assistance of a fresh pair of eyes, they kicked themselves when the answer was finally discovered.

That sounds like me; guilty as charged. I've actually got into trouble over it in the past because I just wouldn't wave a little white flag when I should've. It was called "not being a team player".

Wow, I feel better. Who wants a beer?

How do I do that?

No, you don't need to tell me. I'm capable of going and doing my own research.

Elizabeth

Originally posted by goldbug
Don't you owe BuzzLY and me some drinks? 😃 😃 J/k (...running from the LART)

I would have gladly obliged had we not had the meetup at B&N. I think they frown on that sort of thing there. Although I could have bought a round of lattes and called it even 🙂

hkucsis

Originally posted by Elizabeth
And the thing that kills me is that they don't care that they look stupid. They don't care when the answer is right in front of them and has to be pointed out to them. They have no pride.

Some questions (eg. what is mysql? How to connect mysql in php?) are just shit. A simple google search can immediately give you the answer. Why those guys spend time typing the questions here instead of trying to find the answer themselves?

[SHOUTING]
The answer is right in front of them.

DAMN!
[/SHOUTING]

vaaaska

However...

I do find the search capabilities for this forum lacking. Many times, I've tried to find something and came up with nothing - no results. Back in the day when I wasn't more versed I had a really difficult time trying to research even the things that Weedpacket was bludgeoning me with. 😉

That being said, the best search tool is Google and I think this site should have a feature to search either Google or this site.

If you append a Google search with "php" it almost always finds what you want in the manual - or the general direction. Once I figured this out (sorry it took me a while folks) things became easier.

I'd love to see a tutorial (perhaps it's something I should write) that dissects just how to learn php...without trying to teach anything about programming. Stuff like...warm up to your functions list in the manual...here is a list of the most common built-in array functions...here are the important things to read about MySQL before you get started...etc.

I know, we have the commonly answered questions thread (which is wonderful)...but I'm just thinking about the person who comes in here with zero knowledge and perhaps not enouch experiences thinking critically about problem solving in general.

Hudzilla is also one amazing read...I've read most of it. It's mostly in plain (not too technical) english as well. I'd like to see him publish this as a pdf and/or a standalone applet that you could use at your desktop (in addition to a php manual applet too). Yes, I realize his intentions to publish a book...

Honestly, I'd kick down time to help on a venture to create something to help people organize themselves where learning this stuff is concerned...really. The forum is great, but laying a better foundation seems to be in order for many folks.

vaaaska

Originally posted by Weedpacket
I still maintain that it should be necessary to pass an exam to post here. So that people can have no excuses about "oh, I didn't know" when they double-post, or whack up a dirty great wodge of unformatted and unhighlighted code, or just say "It doesn't work" or.... It would also slow down the advertising bots.

I've got an idea...why not force new registrees to post in the 'newbies' forum. They have to have a certain number of posts (or be upgraded by passing a little online test) before getting into the show = 'coding' forum.

It's just an idea...I'm not actually proposing that somebody do this.

Weedpacket

Originally posted by vaaaska
...without trying to teach anything about programming.

I think this is a skill that is sorely lacking by far too many people. They want to write the Next Great Web App, but they really have no idea how to go about it (they even say "i have no idea how to go about it. can anyone point me to some good tutorials"). A <percentage> of these are better served by either finding a prepackaged solution, or hiring someone to do it for them.

"Everyone who wants to be a writer wants to have written. Very few of them actually want to write." I think it was Isaac Asimov who said something along those lines - and he'd've known.

davidjam

Being still a newby, there is one piece of advise that I took from wp when I first started posting my questions in the Coding forum, and that is to simplify my code down to its most essential elements (I mean WAY down, even renaming variables to be simple plain english descriptives). This isolates the problem without forcing the helper to have to wade through mind-numbing filler. (It also helped me to know better what I was doing.)

Sxooter

OK, this thread really bugged me.

I gave a short, simple, correct answer. I gave an example. I could have bought a plane ticket and flown out and shown the guy in person.

In his defense, it wasn't the original poster that drove me nuts, but the guys responding who didn't seem to be reading my posts. arggg.

LordShryku

I read your posts. It appeared to me that the other guy wasn't getting what you were saying about the aggregates, so I felt compelled to write exactly what you said in a different way. Sorry if that bugged you....

Sxooter

Oh no! You didn't bug me at all. You got it. it was the guy who kept NOT getting it. And i didn't want to squash his newbie little heart or nothing, and make him never visit the db forum again. I was just going insane as he kept NOT getting it, over and over and over.... 🙂

The first post should have been "The guy who kept not getting it" Not guys, guy. Singular.

Sxooter

Oh, and in the defense of the guy who wasn't getting it, I've been there myself plenty in the past. We all have... He's nowhere near as annoying as the guy who asks you for help, you give him a great answer, he asks you to code the whole thing for him, and when you don't he tells you that you suck, are an a-hole, and never help anyone here.

I've had that happen a good dozen or so times. THAT makes me wanna crawl through the ethernet cable and pull his intestines out through whichever end is handy.