What languages do you know

[mtmosier]

Originally posted by dalecosp
"Hackers" don't reverse engineer commercial software. Not it they're really true to the ethic.

Exactly. Reverse engineering is wrong. That's why we all use authentic IBM PCs instead of those evil clones.

[planetsim]

Originally posted by mtmosier
Exactly. Reverse engineering is wrong. That's why we all use authentic IBM PCs instead of those evil clones.

So what does hardware have to do with Software? I see nothing wrong with PCs other than authentic IBM ones, its called competition, and healthy competition at that.

[mtmosier]

Originally posted by planetsim
So what does hardware have to do with Software? I see nothing wrong with PCs other than authentic IBM ones, its called competition, and healthy competition at that.

So competition is good, but only as long as you limit it to hardware?

[cyberlew15]

Atno poin did I say that they looked at open source code it's a given that that is acceptable but taking codethat is not their own whether it is to merely observe the codeis wrong.

a lot of windows bugs are found by real hackers which to some may sound useful but the "Crackers" use this information so it is wrong to do so. Also by the way I stated that my grammar is bad and inherently a subset of grammar is punctuation. also to innovate is to create something completelynew so no it is not done fromother peoples code. for example If i build my own bike wheel that is not innovation but rather creation.

I'mnot saying hackers are destructive I'm saying there like oldladies nitpicking at code that they have no rights to spy on. If they want toi look at code andfind problems they should become debuggers for majour software companies

In short they indirectly through their knowledge enable others to do serious harm. I'mnot saying they should'nt existI'm simply stating that they don't do any real good. Also someone that invents software is klnown as a software engineer not a hacker.

[Weedpacket]

Well I claim that authors should never read other authors' work; they should be able to get their inspiration without it.

Hackers built the Internet.

[laserlight]

just because you do not change a file or cause destruction you still have no rights to take apart someones work

You're working on the assumption that hackers work towards unauthorised breach of security in computer systems. Eric Raymond's definition of hacker doesnt exclude that, but (where computer hackers are concerned) emphasis is placed on expertise in software development, and the related culture and attitude.

and the tools such as soft ICE which hackers may use to observe programs donot make them skillful programmers

Ah, but the term hacker here may be applied to the authors of such software, not to mere lusers.

Atno poin did I say that they looked at open source code it's a given that that is acceptable but taking codethat is not their own whether it is to merely observe the codeis wrong.

At no point does Eric Raymond suggest that one has carte blanche with any and all software code - in fact, such a free reign would render open source software redundant.

also to innovate is to create something completelynew so no it is not done fromother peoples code.

cyberlew15, I presume you do not code in PHP, and in fact, you write software using a computer of your own making, with programming languages of your own making. Hold on, you use computers? How unoriginal.

Well I claim that authors should never read other authors' work; they should be able to get their inspiration without it.

That's debatable, I suppose. I read that fantasy author David Eddings claimed to have avoided reading books of his specialty genre so as to avoid getting his own work polluted by the ideas of others. Yet surely at some point he got his inspiration from something, be it from books he read as a child, or even events he experienced not long before writing his books.

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by cyberlew15
In short they indirectly through their knowledge enable others to do serious harm. I'mnot saying they should'nt existI'm simply stating that they don't do any real good.

I think you need to check your text editor - it keeps dropping spaces.

Which would you prefer if a vulnerability existed in an application? Someone finds it, brings it to the attention of the application's developers, so that they can fix it, and to the public, so that they can respond to minimise its effects; or would you prefer to have someone with malicious intentions stumble across it first and use it to wreak havoc? Security through obscurity just does not work.

Oh, and since you seemed to miss this link again and are persisting with having a rather quaint and distorted idea about what the word means, I'm giving it again. Third time's the charm, eh?

What Is a Hacker?

The Jargon File contains a bunch of definitions of the term ‘hacker’, most having to do with technical adeptness and a delight in solving problems and overcoming limits. If you want to know how to become a hacker, though, only two are really relevant.

There is a community, a shared culture, of expert programmers and networking wizards that traces its history back through decades to the first time-sharing minicomputers and the earliest ARPAnet experiments. The members of this culture originated the term ‘hacker’. Hackers built the Internet. Hackers made the Unix operating system what it is today. Hackers run Usenet. Hackers make the World Wide Web work. If you are part of this culture, if you have contributed to it and other people in it know who you are and call you a hacker, you're a hacker.

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by laserlight
That's debatable, I suppose. I read that fantasy author David Eddings claimed to have avoided reading books of his specialty genre so as to avoid getting his own work polluted by the ideas of others. Yet surely at some point he got his inspiration from something, be it from books he read as a child, or even events he experienced not long before writing his books.

You must admit that it makes a pretty weak case: one writer's personal preference regarding a single genre against a blanket ban.

[pohopo]

Going off subject a little with the wording...

I know a hacker is supposed to be a skillful programmer, but I find the word used confusing. The literal definition of hack means to chop or break up. However, a skillful programmer creates new things. So to a lame person (like myself) a hacker would be someone that chops or breaks up programs.

And as a person not all that young anymore I honestly don't ever remember a time when hacker only meant a skillful programmer, it always had the second meaning of a person that hacks into computers and software.

[cyberlew15]

:p soz for the dropping of spaces. also I did not say I was against using tools I just dont build my computer to program on transistor by transistor. but for your point about my programming on someone elses invention I dont just program for PC's I also do Playstations,Gamecubes, X-boxes, Dreamcasts, MACS and various other household appliances which I don't claim to have hacked or built with my own two hands.

:rolleyes: I think also you will find that the internet was built by productive people with jobs that were being paid by the english to invent a communications system encoded and sent via a packeted protocol, which then was used by radio ameteurs to host BBS's and then years later the modern internet over high speed telecomunicatrions links was conceived. Hackers never built the internet they abused it.

😃Furthermore

would you prefer to have someone with malicious intentions stumble across it first and use it to wreak havoc? Security through obscurity just does not work.

😕 WTF? people that crack are talentless idiots that usually consist of 13 year old's that want to play half-life 2 or IM to each other about how much they do not know they only have the knowledge given to them from meloncholly hackers

:glare😮ne last retort hackers don't modify hardware people that do are called electronics experts. other people that cause mischeif and invent mobile phone / console chips are called phreakers because they are mostly phreaks( with exception to developers that do not wantto pay £,000's for development consoles/software 🙂 ).

[justsomeone]

Originally posted by pohopo
Going off subject a little with the wording...

I know a hacker is supposed to be a skillful programmer, but I find the word used confusing. The literal definition of hack means to chop or break up. However, a skillful programmer creates new things. So to a lame person (like myself) a hacker would be someone that chops or breaks up programs.

And as a person not all that young anymore I honestly don't ever remember a time when hacker only meant a skillful programmer, it always had the second meaning of a person that hacks into computers and software.

Sorry for quoting the full message, but this thread is breaking off into multiple conversations...

The verb "to hack" doesn't just mean to cut, see this definition from the Cambridgedictionary

to manage to deal successfully with something:
I tried working on the night shift for a while, but I just couldn't hack it.

(This in turn could derive from "cutting a path" which is another usage of hack... eg to hack your way through the jungle with a machete.)

It's usally used in the negative as in the above example, but in the positive it means to manage to deal successfully, to come up with a solution, etc etc

It can also be qualified: say you discovered a problem very late in a project life cycle, when it ws too late to redesign the solution. You might find some ugly, inelegant workaround which will get over the hump but will need to be dealt with properly during a subsequent project. That ugly workaround might be called "a quick and dirty hack".

So, if you have a tricky problem, and you figure out a solution, you've hacked it!

This, as far as I know, is the source of the term "hacker" which I'm sure predates programming.

In fact, here is some more etymology of the term which observes that "hack" meaning "to try, to attempt" was first recorded in 1898.

Incidentally, describing a person as a hack as distinct from a hacker is very different. A hack is a person of not above average skill in the task at hand.

[BuzzLY]

Cyberlew, read this thoroughly. If after reading this you insist on your twisted ideas about what a hacker truly is, then I'm afraid we're going to have to label you "troll." Not all attention is good attention, my young padawan.

from the Jargon File:

hacker

<person, jargon> (Originally, someone who makes furniture with an axe) 1. A person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems and how to stretch their capabilities, as opposed to most users, who prefer to learn only the minimum necessary.

2. One who programs enthusiastically (even obsessively) or who enjoys programming rather than just theorizing about programming.

3. A person capable of appreciating hack value.

4. A person who is good at programming quickly.

5. An expert at a particular program, or one who frequently does work using it or on it; as in "a Unix hacker". (Definitions 1 through 5 are correlated, and people who fit them congregate.)

6. An expert or enthusiast of any kind. One might be an astronomy hacker, for example.

7. One who enjoys the intellectual challenge of creatively overcoming or circumventing limitations.

8. (Deprecated) A malicious meddler who tries to discover sensitive information by poking around. Hence "password hacker", "network hacker". The correct term is cracker.

The term "hacker" also tends to connote membership in the global community defined by the net (see The Network and Internet address). It also implies that the person described is seen to subscribe to some version of the hacker ethic.

It is better to be described as a hacker by others than to describe oneself that way. Hackers consider themselves something of an elite (a meritocracy based on ability), though one to which new members are gladly welcome. Thus while it is gratifying to be called a hacker, false claimants to the title are quickly labelled as "bogus" or a wannabee".

Cyberlew, we are a pretty fun-loving, laid-back group of people on this board. Don't alienate yourself by becoming a troll. Accept the fact that there are many smart people here who know exactly what a hacker truly is, and you would be well served to listen and learn, rather than attempt to impress them with your presumably shallow depth of technical knowledge. One thing you will learn as you get older: it's okay to be wrong, admit it, ask for help, and learn from your mistakes. Perhaps someday soon you will learn this lesson, before Elizabeth starts brandishing the LART! 😃

[Elizabeth]

Originally posted by BuzzLY
Accept the fact that there are many smart people here who know exactly what a hacker truly is, and you would be well served to listen and learn, rather than attempt to impress them with your presumably shallow depth of technical knowledge.

And also know that some of us are "hackers" because we cough really loudly.

One thing you will learn as you get older: it's okay to be wrong, admit it, ask for help, and learn from your mistakes.

Believe me, Buzz knows what he's talking about here. He's practically an expert on the subject.

Perhaps someday soon you will learn this lesson, before Elizabeth starts brandishing the LART! 😃

Wow, 2 LARTings in one week! The ol girl is getting her workout!

[goldbug]

No no! keep him going! feed the troll! We've almost proven Godwin's Law once again 😃

[Weedpacket]

I'm getting exhausted; I don't think I can hack this thread any more.

I met some of those people, and yes, they are hackers - some of them are engineers, too. (I recall RFC1 was written in a bathroom because that was the only place with sufficient horizontal surface that wasn't covered by sleeping bodies. I don't recall why the house was so crowded.)

The only reason you think hackers abuse the Internet and didn't build it is because of your faulty understanding of the word. And that is entirely your own problem; certainly it's not through any failing on our part.

[TheDefender]

Can we puhhhhleeeease bring this one back on topic?

I know English... ;-)

I talk good Englush. At leest dat's wat my teecher telled me.
Oops, you meaned programin' languages? Lingo, PHP, C++ fur me.

Sorry, had to step in here, Mills Lane style, and break this ear biting up a bit.

[Jason_Batten]

The only reason you think hackers abuse the Internet and didn't build it is because of your faulty understanding of the word. And that is entirely your own problem; certainly it's not through any failing on our part.

Hey Weedpacket, um, well maybe you and all the other hackers as you call yourself can redefine the word for us so we understand, please?

Apparently you say the word cracker is better meant for to common definition of the word hacker.

So, do teach away oh master 😕

And Elizabeth you really should give up those cigars :rolleyes:

[planetsim]

I think most get confused because if you take cracker out hacker can be defined by two principles

White Hat Hackers - Definition by WikiPedia

A Whitehat, also rendered as White hat or White-hat, is, in the realm of Information technology, a name that describes a person who is ethically opposed to the abuse of Computer systems. Realizing that the Internet now represents human voices from all around the world makes the defense of its integrity an important pastime for many. A Whitehat generally focuses on securing IT Systems whereas a Blackhat (the opposite) would like to break into them, but this is a simplification. A Blackhat will wish to secure their own machine and a Whitehat might need to break into a Blackhat's machine in the course of an investigation. What exactly differentiates a Whitehat and a Blackhat is open to interpretation but Whitehats tend to cite altruistic motivations.

Black Hat Hackers - Definition by WikiPedia

n the computer security community, a black hat is a skilled hacker who uses his or her ability to pursue their interest illegally. They are often economically motivated, or may be representing a political cause. Sometimes, however, it is pure curiosity.

The term comes from old Western movies where heroes typically wore white or light-colored hats and outfits, and the villains wore black outfits with black hats.*

There is also the term "black hat and mirror shades," which is only loosely related to this definition of a Black Hat. Instead, this term refers to the stereotypical image of mysterious government agents. See Black Hat and Mirror Shades.

Now as you can see that seems pretty clear cut but it just started to blend in as hacker. Now this doesnt state that White Hat Hackers dont hack systems

WikiPedia - White Hat Hacker - Security

There is a third meaning which is a kind of fusion of the positive and pejorative senses of hacker. The term white hat hacker is often used to describe those who attempt to break into systems or networks in order to help the owners of the system by making them aware of security flaws, or to perform some other altruistic activity. Many such people are employed by computer security companies (such professionals are sometimes called sneakers). Collections of these people are often called tiger teams.

The term hacker though in the context we are using is this however
Wikipedia - Hacker Definition

The positive usage of hacker (the "proper" usage). One who knows a (sometimes specified) set of programming interfaces well enough to write software rapidly and expertly. This type of hacker is well-respected, although the term still carries some of the meaning of hack, developing programs without adequate planning. This zugzwang gives freedom and the ability to be creative against methodical careful progress.

At their best, hackers can be very productive. The downside of hacker productivity is often in maintainability, documentation, and completion. Very talented hackers may become bored with a project once they have figured out all of the hard parts, and be unwilling to finish off the "details". This attitude can cause friction in environments where other programmers are expected to pick up the half finished work, decipher the structures and ideas, and bullet-proof the code. In other cases, where a hacker is willing to maintain their own code, a company may be unable to find anyone else who is capable or willing to dig through code to maintain the program if the original programmer moves on to a new job.

Types of hackers in this sense are gurus and wizards. "Guru" implies age and experience, and "wizard" often implies particular expertise in a specific topic, and an almost magical ability to perform hacks no one else understands.

Now just because they are called hackers doesnt mean there Title cant be also Software Engineer, Application Developer etc its just a group way to call them and most that have either titles and more consider themselves hackers.

Now compare Black Hat Hackers to Crackers

Again using WikiPedia

The most common usage of "hacker" in the popular press is to describe those who subvert computer security without authorization or indeed, anyone who has been accused of using technology (usually a computer or the Internet) for terrorism, vandalism, credit card fraud, identity theft, intellectual property theft, and many other forms of crime. This can mean taking control of a remote computer through a network, or software cracking. This is the pejorative sense of hacker, also called cracker or black-hat hacker or simply "criminal" in order to preserve unambiguity.

Now although they arent explained exactly as the quotes from weedpacket, they still get to the same point.

Now cyberlew15 if this doesnt help you understand what the real term means, then well I guess your gonna have a hard time communicating with us hackers

[Jason_Batten]

Well, why would "white hat hackers" use the word hacker when they known that it is more commonly known to common people to define the black hat hackers 😕

It just causes confusion. Makes people think the worst by nature and starts silly little arguments.

Although IMO, most white hat hacker are just black hat hackers looking to take advantage of their knowledge.

Of course thats being judgemental and not thinking of the individual. I believe there should be no reason to have hackers at all. That's if people respected each other.

*rolls up weedpacket in a rug and smokes him

Lets hold hands *puts on John Lennon - Imagine

*Sways side to side

[justsomeone]

Just a few more comments on the hacker / cracker things...

There are more hackers than the sum of White Hat and Black Hats. Most (at least in my experience) hackers are niether. They don't go attacking systems, but neither do they set about to save the world. They just invest time and energy in an activity that they get a kick out of.

Also, standing on either side of the definition debate and demanding absolute authority is a pointless exercise in the english language. The meaning of english words changes depending on how they are used. The dictionaries just try to keep up.

There was no authority which decreed that "henceforth, the word 'gay' shall not only be used in the sense of 'cheerful' but shal also mean 'having a sexual orientation to persons of the same sex'". People just started using the word in that context, and the dictionaries moved on to reflect this. In fact a quick sample of dictionaries here shows that the more recent usage is now listed before the older one, reflecting the more common usage of the word.

Words tend to eventually come to mean what people think they mean. So if most people think "hacker" means "someone who breaks into other people's computer systems", then that's effectively what it does mean. The dictionaries will come to catch up.