Supplementing PHP

Azala

I jumped straight from C++/Delphi to PHP when starting to code web applications, I don't know much about Java nor Python which seems to be a few must know languages, I do know alot of flash and some action scripting in flash...

My question is, what would supplement PHP better, I know this is entirely based on what sort of stuff you are making, but i'm looking at the overall picture, some input would be appreciated.

Possible languages that I can come up with:

Python
Java
Javascript
Flash Actionscripting
ASP
.Net

It seems ASP/.Net/J2EE is preferred in job openings, i'm at a loss which way to go.

Cheers

Roger_Ramjet

ASP/.Net/J2EE are the preferred options of large companies whose IT staff have locked them into proprietry, read EXPENSIVE, software options from MickeySoft. The IT staff do this for their own benefit, not the company's. It furthers their own careers as the company has to keep paying to upgrade their staffs' skills: which keeps the staffs' wages high. There is always a skills shortage for the latest generation of software/applications and the company has to compete by offering high wages, or loose the staff it paid to train. Neat trick eh?

So, if you want to get a good step up on the jobs ladder then master the latest load of crap that MickeySoft has foisted on an unwary market. But don't expect that to last you for long: 2 years and everyone will have an MS certificate for it as well. The fact that they can't actually write good programs does not matter in the least.

Roger_Ramjet

PS: if you know C or C++ then Java and PHP should look familiar and be easy for you to handle. ASP is very much a VB variant, but .NET should be more familiar as it is C based - I believe.

Forget Flash, unless graphic design is where you really want to be.

Davy

JavaScript supplements PHP but it isn't worth learning. I just molest DreamWeaver :p

Weedpacket

I'd recommend learning Javascript; since PHP runs server-side, and you'll almost inevitably want to do some client-side coding, then you'll want a client-side language to code with.

Beyond that; whatever turns you on and whatever looks like it would be useful for you (for whatever reason).

Azala

I've done some reading and would like some feedback again;

Java
To me it seems Java are most used for chat and online games
The extreme amount of betting sites popping up requires Java developers and I suspect this is why most job openings is about Java, because this is what's hot at the moment.

If the Java business is as shallow as described above I have no interest going that way.

I know Java can do so much more, but why use java for something I can do in PHP if you get my drift, the language has to supplement, not take over.

Python
Not much used for web applications, of course, everything is relative, but compared to other languages the web usage of Python seems low and more directed to *Unix systems?

Again, little interest if this is the case.

ASP
Basically the same as PHP only in a Microsoft format? The only reason to learn this would be because it's easier getting work as an ASP developer than PHP, atleast where I live, but I see PHP slowly coming into the business market and I suspect 2-3 years in the future PHP will be alot stronger in this market.

If that's the case, no reason to go the ASP way for me.

.Net
One of my main problems with .Net is actually finding out what it's all about, I get the part of it being a "platform" you build on where what you make will work on a good amount of devices?

Or as Microsoft puts it:

.NET is the Microsoft Web services strategy to connect information, people, systems, and devices through software. Integrated across the Microsoft platform, .NET technology provides the ability to quickly build, deploy, manage, and use connected, security-enhanced solutions with Web services. .NET-connected solutions enable businesses to integrate their systems more rapidly and in a more agile manner and help them realize the promise of information anytime, anywhere, on any device.

What kind of language is used in .Net, is it a combination of C# and ASP?

Flash
The demand for Flash material just doesn't seem high enough to justify the time spent on learning it.

Javascript
Probably the most useful language as far as I can see as a supplement to PHP, but with the little Javascript i've done i've run into so many cross-browser issues it's really not appealing to deal with, hehe.

XML, XHTML, UML, DHTML
I seem to miss the concept of atleast XML, why would I want to store data in XML when I got a mySQL server running? I see alot of job openings asking for knowledge in these "languages", but how are they actually used, when do they become useful?

Thanks for all the input so far.
If you guys got any links or anything to a good page that gets to the point fast and explain with an example of why this and that is good to use I would appreciate it.

You are free to bash my probable shallow interperations of the languages mentioned above aswell to help me understand better on what to choose.

laserlight

hmm... so you already know C++, Delphi and PHP. You want to learn a language that will supplement your use of PHP in web development.

I think that learning Javascript makes most sense, since PHP is primarily used serverside so a clientside scripting language would complement it.

Aside from that, I presume you already know HTML, so you might want to upgrade your knowledge to XHTML. XML comes in especially handy for portable data transfer (and even storage, in some cases). I doubt you want to learn UML at this point since a modeling language doesnt supplement PHP directly. DHTML isnt really a language by itself, but describes a group of techniques for using HTML, Javascript and CSS in a mix.

Roger_Ramjet

XML is Self-describing data - and is the future. It defines a method of storing and transfering data that is both Human and Machine readable. It is ridiculous that it is taking sooo long to become commonplace: but then it is platform independant so I guess none of the main players really want it around.

Laserlight is right, javascript is a must, but then as a C++ programmer I know you already know it, you just have not realised that yet.

As for Java, it looked like taking over a few years ago, again because it is platform independent. Don't be fooled by what you see on the web. In large corporations like banks, with massive intranets, they are doing a damn sight more than just using it for games applets. But it's like C++, it has been overtaken by external events.

In the end though, just being able to program is no guarantee of work. What will keep you employable is industry knowledge: knowing about the business that is going to use your programs. Look through the jobs ads, they'll pay double for a programmer with 3 years 'international settlements', or 'treasury' experience in a large financial institution.

Azala

Really appreciate the feedback guys.

I will definatly study Javascript to a greater extent than what i've done so far.

My main issues as a self-employed programmer is that I have to be able to compete with the large corporations to some extent, obviously.

That means in some terms defending the way I program, defending the path I took to get the end result done, now there are thousands of ways to reach that end line...but, my point is, I need to come off as a person who knows what he is doing by always picking the right solutions (languages) for the right job.

Staying ahead or atleast on par with large corporations is not an easy task, and the more languages you use, the more work it is keeping yourself updated on the latest in that language.

What i'm trying to avoid is getting into a situation where some large corp dude make a laughing stock out of me (my company) because I didn't use blabla to create blabla solution, and while it sounds stupid, reputation has so much value in the business i'm in that ignoring such a thing may cost me my biggest client.

One of the things I like about programming is that theres always ways to improve what you are doing so it never (well almost) gets dull, which is why this post.

As for reference, I rarely make Joe Schmoes static 5 page html webpage, it's usually big CMS sites where security, functionality, compability and speed is important.

And you are of course right Roger in that knowing what the market wants is one of the main factors in terms of getting the job.

Cheers

Weedpacket

Roger Ramjet wrote:
XML is Self-describing data - and is the future. It defines a method of storing and transfering data that is both Human and Machine readable. It is ridiculous that it is taking sooo long to become commonplace: but then it is platform independant so I guess none of the main players really want it around.

I think the more likely reason is that so many people have developed the (mistaken) notion that the "storing data" aspect makes it no different in concept from relational databases - and we already have relational databases, so what do we need something else for? When the actual fact of the matter is that XML has a much richer concept of structuring data than just "tables". Perhaps the RDB paradigm is so deeply ingrained that it's hard to shuck off and many XML users end up just using it to make tables.
(One fairly cool use of XML is the front-end to Mozilla-based applications like Firefox: the whole UI layout is written in XUL. Now I wouldn't want to describe a GUI with a relational database!)

Oh, and Azala, you mention DHTML. In my opinion the term is years outdated: these days it's no more a novelty to have client-side scripting in an HTML page than it is to have images.

XHTML? I'd go for it - in fact I'd suggest learning it instead of HTML if it weren't for the fact that XHTML is defined in terms of HTML (basically by listing all the sloppinesses that are valid in HTML that are not valid in XHTML). The restrictions are because XHTML is a dialect of XML, which means a tighter syntax, which means easier parsing, machine processing and whatnot.

justsomeone

Azala wrote:
Java
To me it seems Java are most used for chat and online games
The extreme amount of betting sites popping up requires Java developers and I suspect this is why most job openings is about Java, because this is what's hot at the moment.

Way underestimated here. A huge number of online services are delivered using J2EE architecure - ecommerce, banking, credit card processing, medical, and business 2 business services all have leading examples delivered in this technology.

Azala wrote:
I know Java can do so much more, but why use java for something I can do in PHP if you get my drift, the language has to supplement, not take over.

I have heard this debated ad nauseum, and I hope I'm not kicking it off here again, but whatever the "converted" on this board think, there are experts who firmly believe that J2EE greatly aids the deployment of highly scalable systems. I'm not syaing that they're absolutely right. Just saying that it's an open debate.

Azala wrote:
ASP
I see PHP slowly coming into the business market and I suspect 2-3 years in the future PHP will be alot stronger in this market.

I'd be more inclined to believe that ASP sites will move to .NET rather than to PHP. I've little exposure to .NET so i won't comment further. By the way ASP isn't a language. It's a method of programing. ASP sites might use VBScript as the language, which in turn called DLL's at the back end. ASP/VBScript have the same relationship as CGI/Perl, if that helps clarify.

Azala wrote:
Flash
The demand for Flash material just doesn't seem high enough to justify the time spent on learning it.

Flash is a client-side technology.

Azala wrote:
Javascript
Probably the most useful language as far as I can see as a supplement to PHP, but with the little Javascript i've done i've run into so many cross-browser issues it's really not appealing to deal with, hehe.

Javascript is a client-side technology.

Azala wrote:
XML, XHTML, UML, DHTML
I seem to miss the concept of atleast XML, why would I want to store data in XML when I got a mySQL server running? I see alot of job openings asking for knowledge in these "languages", but how are they actually used, when do they become useful?

You're grouping a number of different things here.

You've already got some responses on XML.

XHTML is another markup language, somewhat like HTML, but more strict and based on XML rather than SGML.

UML is generally used for expressing the design of software systems. These then need to be developed somehow. Systems designed in UML can go on to be developed in PHP, java or any other language, or a combination of languages. Expressing your design in UML has a number of advantages including the portability brought about by using industry standard notation, and being able to use software which can read/write UML.

DHMTL is Dynamic HTML, which again is a client-side technology.
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If you're looking to build any sort of a career in this industry, don't hitch your entire hopes to one language. Any real project will require a mix of skills. Let's say you're interviewing for a job on a team which produces a PHP ecommercee application. They will require you at least to be comfortable with javascript and DHTML ( to be able to deliver client-side features such as navigation lements), XML (to be able to exchange data with other service providers (say, credit card processors), shell scripting (to be able to set up batch processes and cron jobs for the background), and so on... they may also want experience of industry standard tools in areas like source control, design, etc etc...

Get a few hobby projects under your belt and you may start to see where all of these things come together.

Don't be a one-trick pony.