PHP career advice

Xeon_0

Hi all,

I'm currently 21 years old and at this age, you gotta make some serious plans for your own future already. 🙂

Up to today, I've created some web sites using those WYSIWYG tools, but all along, I've always been a Windows programmer working with the C++ and C# programming language. C++ and C# are basically what Windows programmers use to create those Windows programs like Adobe PhotoShop, Norton SystemWorks, database programs and financial/business/enterprise applications etc.

However, it seems that the future of the computing world is in the Web. Microsoft is currently promoting the use of it's .Net tools like ASP.Net and web services and it is already happening : traditional C++/C# programmers like me are being forced(indirectly, not brutal force) to combine C++/C# code with HTML and ASP.Net stuff.
Consider the following(C# code is in red and ASP.Net stuff are in black):

[size=1]
<HTML>
<script language="C#" runat="server">
[COLOR=Red]protected void btnButton_Click(object Source, EventArgs e)
{
    if((Name.Value == "Xeon") && (Password.Value == "Hello777"))
    {
        Message.InnerHtml = "Passed";
    }
    else
    {
        Message.InnerHtml = "Incorrect password";
    }
}[/COLOR]</script>
<body>
<form method=post runat="server">Enter name :
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<input id="Name" type=text size=50 runat="server">

[/size]
I dunno about you guys, but I can't take this kind of crap anymore : a beautiful pure programming language inter-mingled with web code and the whole result is a messy(this is only a very simple sample; in real-world apps, the code is a hundred times more disgusting).
It's like mixing tasty french fries with metal barb wire. If you know what I'm talking about, you would puke too.

I'm going to break out of this C++/C# development and is planning to venture into pure web programming like HTML, JavaScript and PHP etc.
Especially, I'm very interested in PHP because I've seen the amount of power and possibilities it can offer. It can be used to create shopping cart scripts, online photo albums etc.......even this forum is created with PHP, ain't it so?

Below are my questions :

1) I'm intending to abandon C++/C#/Windows programming and is currently planning a possible academic and career path for myself as below :

Learn HTML -------> Learn advanced HTML --------> Learn JavaScript -------> Learn basic PHP ---------> Learn advanced PHP -------> Become a freelance PHP solution programmer(intend to specialize in PHP)

Is this a good route? Or does anyone have a better route? Mind you, although the web programming syntax is strange to me, they're not as complicated as those traditional programming languages like C++(if you've tried learning them before, you'll know) and besides, I've seen lots of complicated code and is not afraid.

2) Second question....for those of you old-timers who've seen the Internet programming world.....is PHP going to be over-taken by ASP.Net and other "Microsoft-owned" technologies anytime soon?
(In the traditional Windows programming arena, the open-standard C++ is slowly being replaced by Microsoft's own propriety C# and .Net languages.)

I seriously need some good and constructive advice.

Thanks!
Xeon. 🙂

bodzan

I would like to welcome you to the "outside" world of programming (beyond MacroSh*t)...

Also, I would like to say that the path you metnioned in question one is pretty much the same that mine was (not that I'm anywhere near real PHP Guru's like Weedpacket or Laserlight or others that an be met on this site), but my background wasn't any type of programming at all (I dropped out of Medical School and started HTML)...
So I would think that you would do great with both PHP & JavaScript languages (HTML is so easy to learn that one can learn it in a week in worst case scenario)...

For instance beacuse of my previous knowledge of programming (the absense of) all things I had to learn with JS were hard for me but once I learned them - I found PHP fascinating (although I still can't figure out OOP which you are qualified in)...

So basically I have no other advice to offer you than this: you can rock in PHP!!! So, just go ahead and do it!

And as for second question: if (big IF) MS conqueres PHP world and corrupts it - there will be a new language found just to oppose it - I have no doubt about it...

So basically my humble oppinion is that PHP is here to stay and to kick that huge MS ass!

Brit

I would consider quite carefully what it is you are proposing to do.

It is of course true that the web is transitioning from a publishing platform to more of an accessible interactive one, and technology providers are racing to be the ones who offer the market leading products & services to achieve this.

However, what we are seeing is the start of another internet bubble. After the first one burst in the late 90's, technology consolidated and caution was applied to everything companies did within the net space. Now, with the advent of the absurd "Web 2.0" premise, we see the same race to develop and own the "Web 2.0" sphere and this is guaranteed to end up exactly as it did before.

Venture Capitalists, long starved of a technology ideal that makes them feel young & funky are now investing heavily in so called "Web 2.0" technologies - all of which seem to involve data aggregation and ease of data sharing. Open Source technologies are of course at the forefront of tool development for this new vision, whilst Microsoft, IBM, Oracle, and others carefully choose those parts they get involved with. Once again, as in the 90's, we see those that rush headlong in, and those that sit back and wait.

Right now, PHP is in an odd space - it is enormously popular (predominantly because its so easy to use) yet is resisted by serious application developers on the enterprise level because of its approach to certain programmatical issues; of course, Zend champions the use of PHP in a commercially savvy way, and Yahoo points to its site as being powered by PHP, but this means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

If you strip away PHP, ASP, .NET, and others, you inevitably end up looking at an application written in C/C++. The 'web' might offer data, tools, products and services via these comparably lightweight technologies, but the internet is powered by C.

So by all means, explore the world of PHP but remember to keep your C/C++ skills current too; there's no such thing as having too many feathers in your cap, especially when the bubble bursts again and people wake up jobless and realise that Evangelist O'Reilly and his chums were talking rubbish.

Roger_Ramjet

If you are a proficient C programmer then you already 'know' php and js, just need to learn the differences same as you did with C & C++.

As bodzan sez, html is so simple for a trained programmer that you can learn it inside out in a week.
But what you really need to learn now is XHTML and CSS (cascading style sheets) - which again should be no problem for you, though css seems to be a big problem for many web designers (but they are graphic artists not programmers). What will be a problem and a pain is learning all the idiosyncrasies of all the different browser versions - especially IE.
So learn to code to the recommended standard and don't get sucked into all the IE hacks - if it don't work as-is in all current browsers then it ain't worth doing, no matter how clever you think it will look.

Down the track you'll also need to master XML and it's attendant technologies like XPATH and XSL - and those are a real and worthwhile challenge for any programmer.

MickeySoft wont 'colonise' php - they would if they could but they can't cos we won't let them. They tried to take over the web and failed (though IE did rule the browser market untill now) cos they are just not good enough programmers.

PS. and the one thing you really need to add to your skills is Relational Databases/SQL. It does not matter what happens to the platforms or the environment - industry and commerce are powered by DATA and the world's data is stored in relational databases. That will not change.

lazzerous

In this field, it's becoming increasingly difficult to find work if you don't have every tool under the sun in your knowledge base.
I would strongly suggest becoming more than proficient in all of the following:
HTML
JavaScript
CSS
Flash
PHP
MySQL
PostgresSQL
Oracle
Apache configurations
CVS
Linux (several flavors of *nix are recommended)
Adobe Photoshop
Adobe Image Ready
Adobe Illustrator
Coldfusion
IIS
VB
ASP (mainly based off the VB Language)
.NET
SQL Server

Although in a perfect world I would definately prefer to do everything 100% open source (Linux/Apache/MySQL/PHP), there are great numbers of companies out there with webv sites and web services that are already developed in M$ technologies that are not willing to re-develop everything in a new language, database and server setup, so to really be worth thr bucks, knowing everything is always best for your pocketbook.

I can't, however, claim that doing anything with M$ technology won't do damage to your soul.

jc94062

Ahhh its good to hear that weedpacket still lives.
Remember when he first started posting here lol.

Other than re-iterating pretty much everything that has been said I'd say don't fully give up on C++\C#. I know one company that would have hired me (at least that was the impression I got) if I'd known C# despite being a web dev. company (who I'd worked for previously coding PHP). Without going into it all don't give up on what you already know, keep your hand in even if its helping out in forums as you never know when it will come in handy.

The best thing you can get is experience as finding a job without it is virtually impossible. You may say that doesn't help when I can't get experience without a job but while paid experience is best volunteer work can't harm, and check out www.rentacoder.com, never tried it myself as was working 80 hours a week (retail management lol) when I was first told about it and then got a job out of the pits of despair anyways but could give you an edge.

Messy code?

$idArr[$idArr['id'][$rows['id']]+1] - thats something I'm using atm, don't ask 😛

Xeon_0

Thanks all, for replying! 🙂

From Bodzan:

I would like to welcome you to the "outside" world of programming (beyond MacroSh*t)

Indeed. Now do I realized that the computing world isn't all about Sun and Microsoft. I feel so free, relaxed and happy now that I'm not being pressured to go whichever direction Microsoft wants to go. :rolleyes:
If you guys have ever been in the Windows programming world before, you'll know that everytime Microsoft pushes out a new technology(COM, COM+, ASP, now C# and ADO.Net, ASP.Net....

So I would think that you would do great with both PHP & JavaScript languages

Say, JavaScript and PHP are about the same type of technologies, right?(at least from what I read from the books)
It seems that the only thing that JavaScript can do that PHP cannot do is to create those cute little web-page toys like falling snow(snowflakes falling from the top to bottom of your browser) and other GUI widgets. Those are nice, though.

(although I still can't figure out OOP which you are qualified in)

Well, if the Linux OS owns 50% of the OS market and Microsoft owns 50%, I would still stick with C++ because it's a beautiful language. But because Microsoft owns over 90% of the OS market, that's why they have a say and even indirect control over open-standard languages like C++.
In the past, they encourage you to code in C++ and now that they have their own C#, they're dropping support for C++ and going into the C# and ASP.Net direction. That's why a lot of C++ programmers are giving up their favorite language and taking up C# instead, because if they don't, they'll be dinos.

From Brit:

If you strip away PHP, ASP, .NET, and others, you inevitably end up looking at an application written in C/C++. The 'web' might offer data, tools, products and services via these comparably lightweight technologies, but the internet is powered by C.

The Internet is powered by C? Hmmm.....maybe. I'm not sure what PHP is written with, but nowadays, the fact is that unless you desire to write operating systems or system ultilities/device drivers, there's no need for C anymore. Even C++ is quite unsuitable for creating business/enterprise/real-world applications in this fast-paced world because the language is too complicated(though very powerful).
That's the reason why C# was introduced : a language to create programs in the shortest time possible while sacrificing some power.

Thus, everything is more "high-level"(PHP, C#, JavaScript, Perl, Visual Basic etc.) instead of "low-level"(C/C++, Assembler and Machine language).
The Internet and all computers is powered by Machine language(ML) at the lowest level, but no one bothers to code any programs in ML because it's not practical.
They had prefer to code in Visual Basic/C# for Windows programs, and C#/XML/XHTML/PHP for the web.

From Roger:

As bodzan sez, html is so simple for a trained programmer that you can learn it inside out in a week.

Nay, maybe not. The syntax and concept of C/C++ is quite different from HTML/XHTML(programming languages VS. markup).
However, I find that the syntax and style of JavaScript/PHP is a lot similar to C/C++(scripting programming languages VS. programming languages).

But what you really need to learn now is XHTML...

Yes, in fact, I got a XHTML book today instead of HTML, because I read that HTML is going to be obsolete(although it won't die). In fact, XHTML has everything that HTML has! The best part is : web pages written in XHTML will look the same in every browser! Is that true? That's what several books said. That alone is the sole attractiveness of XHTML!

From Lazzerous:

I can't, however, claim that doing anything with M$ technology won't do damage to your soul.

You're right. The web programming world, at least for now, is so much more innocent, peaceful and happy compared to the MS world. Thinking back, that MS programming world was just totally scary and a nightmare.
Also, as long as the web is not owned by any one company, there'll be so much possiblities and opportunities, rather than one solid confined space(like in the MS world). Ugh.

From JC94062:

The best thing you can get is experience as finding a job without it is virtually impossible. You may say that doesn't help when I can't get experience without a job but while paid experience is best volunteer work can't harm, and check out www.rentacoder.com.....

Ha ha, yes. I've been to that site before. If I really become a freelance web programmer one day, I'll try to take on about 15 projects and charge $0 from the clients. All I need is a glowing testimonial from them so that I can put it on my site as a prove to future clients.

Messy code? $idArr[$idArr['id'][$rows['id']]+1] - thats something I'm using atm, don't ask😛

Errr.......that must be in PHP and it's something about accessing the elements in an array recursively etc. :evilgrin:
However, I do think that it's possible to re-write it another way for future maintenance of the code and not get confused in future. 🙂
Also, debugging can be worse than he||. 😃

Thanks all!
Xeon.

Roger_Ramjet

web pages written in XHTML will look the same in every browser! Is that true? That's what several books said. That alone is the sole attractiveness of XHTML!

Unfortunately, the books are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. :queasy:

Nothing is going to make all browsers look the same - except if they all use the same formatting engine and all conform 100% to W3C standard.

XHTML is just about writing well-formed html code, the kind of code they taught you in software engineering class. It is to prepare people for the move to XML, both in terms of their coding habits, and the future maintenence/porting of existing code. XML has very strict syntatic rules and requirements, like most languages, and will not work with the kind of sloppy coding practices that so many web developers use.

For me the 'attractiveness' of XHTML is just that: that it requires coders to follow the 'rules' and write well-structured code that is easy to understand and maintain. So far as I'm concerned, not closing tags is like not closing { } in C, the code should break and serves you right. 😃

In case you don't know: XML is about platform and application independent self-describing data that is both human and machine readable. Instead of having to negotiate data definitions before-hand, and worry about character sets for diferent platforms, encoding types, etc, trading partners could just send the XML and it's DTD ref and the recipient can understand and process it at will.

Xeon_0

Thanks Roger! 2 questions :

1) An XHTML page can work with PHP scripts, right?

2) I've always thought that XML is simply a documentation markup language. Does it have GUI features like HTML?(colors in fonts, images and fancy tables, supporting Flash etc.)

Thanks!
Xeon.

thorpe

The best part is : web pages written in XHTML will look the same in every browser! Is that true?

hahahahaha....

Roger_Ramjet

Xeon_0 wrote:
Thanks Roger! 2 questions :

1) An XHTML page can work with PHP scripts, right?

Yes. As I say, xhtml is just well-formed html - all tags correctly closed, consistent document structure, etc

Xeon_0 wrote:
2) I've always thought that XML is simply a documentation markup language. Does it have GUI features like HTML?(colors in fonts, images and fancy tables, supporting Flash etc.)

Thanks!
Xeon.

Best answer to this is some links
XML FAQ
W3C XML
SGML FAQ

SGML is a way to create interchangeable (between companies and industries, and across platforms) electronic documents, and XML is SGML applied to the web. That is why I say it has uses and applications far beyond simple web page layout.

In recent years I have spent an inordinate amount of time fking with converting and cleaning up data from clients' legacy systems, and writing routines to convert my data into their required format to update those legacy systems. Some clerical prat opens a mainframe-output text file in excel and immediately fks with it, data types get converted and fields truncated etc, then sends it to us and I have to unscramble it before our staff can do anything.

If the data was in SGML or XML then most of those problems would just disappear. Using xml one can send an electronic document to a trading partner without having to worry if they have the correct application to open and read it, if the fields are in the right order, or their platform can handle your encoding type. Just validate it against the DTD and you are in business.

You cannot style the presentation within xml, so you use CSS or XSLT; but then you should be doing that with html anyway.

justsomeone

I don't know about some of the advice here to learn everything. I don't think that's the way forward for everyone.

Well structured Web services will have nicely structured architecture with logically separate layers. So, you're front-end will know little about the application layer. The application layer won't be hugely aware of the database layer. The database layer won't know squat about the presentation layer, etc etc... On more complext setups, you may have other layers specialising in authentication, "glue" middleware, etc etc

In that environment it makes sense to specialise in a layer. If your thing is User Interface design, then you focus on the presentation layer. if you're more into building elegant, efficient applications, concentrate on the application layer.

Even within a layer, you can choose to specialise to some degree. You can be a general purpose web application PHP developer, or you can identify a niche - maybe get into integrating PHP applications with other protocols/technologies such as "Liberty Alliance", "SUN Access Manager", patricular payment gateways, service management consoles, etc etc... If you can find a very specialist niche like that, that way consultancy lies.

In any case, once you find your layer, I wouldn't stick to any one language. You are likely to need to work on some C, perl, java legacy systems when you work on larger projects.

If you want to run a one-stop shop, then you will need to offer services in graphic work, UI design, server config, security, database design, backup management, etc etc etc... that way madness lies. I know some people do it, but it's not for me.

Your life may vary 🙂

Roger_Ramjet

Good point justsomeone, good point.

As they said on my masters program, 'you need to be T-shaped'. That is, you need to have real, in-depth knowledge and expertise in at least 1 area, coupled with an understanding and experience across a wide range of other technologies and applications. That includes in-depth knowledge of an industry apart from it's use of IT - domain knowledge - otherwise you can't understand that industry's requirements properly.

It is the lack of that domain knowledge that leads to so many systems development failures. We produce technically excellent applications that do the WRONG job because we are programmers, not bankers, or salespeople, or whatever the end-user does.
Take a look at the job ads for high-end positions and saleries, they'll be asking for developers with 5 years experience in a particular area like Treasury, or Foreign Exchange Settlements, or MRP, etc.

Dajuroka

I am not a programmer's bootlace though am quite old now and learnt Pascal, Basic (TRS-80), Borland C (and Turbo C) then C++ and now HTML, XML, PHP, SQL (various sorts) and even visited COBOL and have baulked at PERL. I have books on ASP.NET and Visual Basic......... etc.

My suggestion would be to spend as much time as you can learning algorithms. It would appear there are many ways to program the same things and I would suspect the 'quality' programmer sees the outcomes needed and quickly puts together the algorithms needed. I suspect things such as UML and higher level design skills are where the real money is as automated programs and megaobjects will get rid of the need for many programmers. Mind you I suspect the gamers will be developing super engines (in C++) for years to come - but again you just get the engine and away you go.

Being able to see the algorithm needed and assembling the objects to get there will be the job market - though there will always be niche experts who tweak and optimise - but most industries do not have the time for that.

Anyhow a few thoughts from someone who has seen many major programs go belly up due to poor design rather than complex programming.

Xeon_0

Thanks for replying, everyone! Those advice were really an eye-opener! What can I say?

If XHTML doesn't let web pages look the same across most browsers, then surely CSS does. 😉

Anyway, regarding PHP and JavaScript, are they considered the same type of technologies that perform mostly the same thing, but just "different brands"?
Is there anything that JavaScript can do that PHP cannot?

Thanks all! 🙂
Xeon.

bodzan

PHP is server side scripting (pretty much like ASP) so what PHP does is perform when requested but on the server...

JS is client side scripting i.e. on browser end on the presentation...

To picture this consider web form checking: JS will check the data it can BEFORE iot is send to the server and PHP will do it after...

As for your previous statement that JS can only create pretty frontend gizmoes it is only partially true because it can do much more than that (open close windows, resize window, replace status bar text in the browser and check inserted data into a form as mentioned just to name the few)...

Basically JS cannot work with any of the server side stuff like databases and such which is PHP's area but can be very helpful in various ways...

So basically you can learn both but in all the applications I develop over the years PHP is allways the primary and JS is secondary because it can be shut down by the client and then you have nothing else left, but PHP to check the form data - for example...

I hope I'm making sense...

thorpe

Basically JS cannot work with any of the server side stuff like databases and such which is PHP's area

it can however make requests to the server via the xmlhttprequest object. so in a way, you can connect javascript to php which then connects to the database. typically, this process is called ajax, and it is one of the faster growing areas of web developement.

Xeon_0

Thanks for the info, Bodzan and Thorpe! But is it wiser to learn JavaScript over VBScript(VBScript == Microsoft!!!!! :bemused🙂? Also, what's this about JScript? Once, I heard some folks say that JScript and JavaScript are not the same.

Thanks all! 🙂
Xeon.

thorpe

vbscript and jscript can both be used on both the server (asp - you need to understand that asp can be written in serveral languages, it is a framework, not a language) and on the client. though they both only work on the client in IE. (they are MS techs) jscript is almost an exact replica of javascript, but an MS version.

for client-side scripting you will want to learn javascript (it is the standard - suppoted by all browsers).

a typical web developer would want to know markup (xhtml,html,css,xml), at least one server-side (scripting) language (php,asp,jsp,colfusion), and javascript.

Roger_Ramjet

Xeon_0 wrote:
Thanks for replying, everyone! Those advice were really an eye-opener! What can I say?

If XHTML doesn't let web pages look the same across most browsers, then surely CSS does. 😉

Anyway, regarding PHP and JavaScript, are they considered the same type of technologies that perform mostly the same thing, but just "different brands"?
Is there anything that JavaScript can do that PHP cannot?

Thanks all! 🙂
Xeon.

No CSS does not - nothing does. It is how the browser's rendering engine operates that determine the final look, not where the formatting instructions - the style - come from.

Basic and real difference between php and js is: php is a SERVER-side scripting language, js is CLIENT-side. This means that they do completely different things and cannot do anything the other can.
The fact that they look like different flavours of the same thing is because they both have their roots in C and use the C language syntax and style. I always think of them as flavours of C, as is java.