Is this talk about 'patterns' just a new hype?

vaaaska

I'm curious (as always) what some of y'all might say about this. All of the sudden, everybody is talking about 'patterns' in programming. Sure, I get it. Finding the common ground amongst the things you do/need and creating things to suit those needs. But, it's completely inherent already isn't it?

Am I missing something here?
Am I wrong wondering if this is a new hype (ala web 2.0 and ajax in some ways)?

Merci...

thorpe

New? I think you'll find theve been around for a long time.

Jason_Batten

I think vaaaska just means they seem to be talked about a lot more recently. A lot of people seem to have been blogging, posting about it the last 4 months?

Shrike

It's definitely not a new hype. The classic gang of Four 'Design Patterns' book was published 10 years ago. I think perhaps patterns are becoming more pervasive in PHP lately...that must be a good thing.

Finding the common ground amongst the things you do/need and creating things to suit those needs. But, it's completely inherent already isn't it?

Yes! that's half the point. The design principles of code often remain the same whereas implementation differs all the time. Take for example the Iterator pattern. We all use record sets, arrays and so forth to hold sets of data. Iterating over a record set requires a different set of code to an array, so the Iterator pattern hides that difference behind a nice common API and from then on record sets and arrays can be treated in the same way.

dream_scape

Patterns are definitely not new, and not some kind of "hype" either. They are sort of new to PHP and are being used and talked about more in PHP because 5's object model makes patterns that were before either impossible or impractical to implement, now pretty straightforward to implement.

With the new model also brings programmers who were trained in other languages where patterns are beaten in from the start (like Java for example).

Also patterns are not concrete things. There are no "specs" per-se, but they are by nature very fuzzy creatures. Take the Adapter pattern, which can basically be stated as "provides a different interface to a [3rd party] object," which we can all probably basically understand the meaning of, however it says nothing about the implementation, and there are probably countless ways to implement the pattern.

vaaaska

Well, I'm saying that it's 'hype' hype and not simply hype. I think dream.scape is on the ball (well, everybody is) when he points out that it's more relevant (an update to relevance) because of PHP5 and the OOP thing.

I knew about patterns and find it a little odd that people are suddenly going crazy with it - I think I see the gist of this new 'hype' though. It's relevant.

Actually, an argument could probably be made that could relate 'pattern' and 'programming' to 'style' and 'design' (graphic design). Style, for the smart designer friends of mine, is a tool and is constantly evolving to the needs/demands of the day.

dalecosp

/me gets out the old word processor and starts scanning the 'Net for a workable title.....

dream_scape

If you don't have it and are looking for a good pattern book, I'd recommend php|architeht's Guide to PHP Design Patterns, which takes a very practical approach to implementing some design patterns in PHP 4 and PHP 5. Plus the coding approach is test driven, so an extra bonus if you are into or want to get into test driven development (and the book is still quite useful if not).

vaaaska

But, my quip with this emerging world of OOP and 'patterns' is that everything OOP in a web app (for instance) is not necessarily going to make it any better. In fact, if you intend that others can understand and alter the work quickly (open source) then it's a step backwards. Certainly, in many instances it's great though.

Yeah, yeah...I know it's not all OOP but I'm just saying you know... 😉

I'm still playing advocate for folks who are not masters of PHP (like myself, although I'm far more capable than most).

hutchic

One thing everyone learns eventually is that no matter what programming paradigm the code compiles to 1's and 0's and will execute roughly at the same speed.

The advantages of functional code vs spaghetti, oop vs functional etc etc is purely for the programmer. They offer no advantages to an end user or client. If spaghetti code is where your forte lies then stick to it and don't jump on every passing bandwaggon. If you're coding in a team environment however design patters provide a standardized(ish) middle ground where everyone should already be profficient and capable of desiphering the code

dream_scape

hutchic wrote:
One thing everyone learns eventually is that no matter what programming paradigm the code compiles to 1's and 0's and will execute roughly at the same speed.

That is the most absurd thing I've ever heard. You cannot seriously believe that a program written entirely as procedural code compiles to the same 1's and 0's as the same program written as object oriented code, and therefore executes the same.

Secondly, compiling has no relevance to PHP. It is not a compiled language. Your PHP code will never be compiled to binary, machine code, or anything other than the opcodes for the interpreter. PHP is an interpreted language. Big difference from a compiled language.

I'm not saying one or the other is better. They are both tools to be used as you see fit to your situation and skills. However, one should not delude themselves into thinking that the end result will be exactly the same. They're both tools, but not two of the same tools.

dalecosp

I'm not sure that you should read that much absolutism into his statement.

Shrike

dream.scape wrote:
That is the most absurd thing I've ever heard. You cannot seriously believe that a program written entirely as procedural code compiles to the same 1's and 0's as the same program written as object oriented code, and therefore executes the same.

Secondly, compiling has no relevance to PHP. It is not a compiled language. Your PHP code will never be compiled to binary, machine code, or anything other than the opcodes for the interpreter. PHP is an interpreted language. Big difference from a compiled language.

I'm not saying one or the other is better. They are both tools to be used as you see fit to your situation and skills. However, one should not delude themselves into thinking that the end result will be exactly the same. They're both tools, but not two of the same tools.

I think your being a little harsh there dream.scape. Hutchic is right in a sense - the speed difference between OOP and procedural code pales into insignificance next to network traffic. I don't think he is suggesting that the same sequence of 0's an 1's are created regardless of technique.

Also PHP as of v4 really is a compiled language, whereas earlier versions were purely interpreted. Each script is compiled before it's executed, just like Java and .NET. It's just that theres no native storage of the compiled code - it requires an intermediate bit of opcode caching software like PHP Accelerator, MMCache etc.

vaaaska wrote:
In fact, if you intend that others can understand and alter the work quickly (open source) then it's a step backwards.

Actually OOP/Smalltalk was thought up to allow lots of people to work on big projects without having to know the ins and outs of the code - focus is put on interface and not implementation. I think it succeeds in that aim too 😉

vaaaska

Actually OOP/Smalltalk was thought up to allow lots of people to work on big projects without having to know the ins and outs of the code - focus is put on interface and not implementation. I think it succeeds in that aim too.

Certainly...but it has a learning curve. Much of time it's a pain to get through though for the non-professional programmer.

I'm not dissing the greatness of OOP. I'd also like to point out that a very few webhosts are behind PHP5 yet - there are limiting factors at work as well.

Today I spent much of my day 'patterning' various scenarios for publishing pages... 😉

Shrike

I was allowed to pick the platform for my current project...PHP 5 finally yay 🙂

I agree that OOP is not for people who have brushed up on HTML and want write some dynamic web pages. But then those sorts of people aren't going to worry about design patterns either.

Weedpacket

hutchic wrote:
The advantages of functional code vs spaghetti, oop vs functional etc etc is purely for the programmer.

Right. Programming is purely for the programmer! Source code in whatever language in whatever paradigm is for the benefit of the H.sap. writing it. If coddling the machine was your ultimate goal, you'd be writing microcode or, better yet, flashing your own chips.

Shrike wrote:
...the speed difference between OOP and procedural code pales into insignificance next to network traffic.

Even more significantly, it pales into insignificance next to something that pales into insignificance beside programmer development/maintenance time. Which is also a lot more expensive than CPU time.

Right; excessive response.

Your PHP code will never be compiled to binary, machine code,

the implication of that being that it never runs at all (unless my Intel works by telepathy).

Shrike

Weedpacket wrote:
unless my Intel works by telepathy

Ahh! So that's the purpose of the hat on your avatar.

vaaaska

I find it really frustrating that I can't use these new class tools in PHP4. I wish everybody would hurry the heck up and upgrade their servers! Argh!!!!!!!

Edit: I was looking for something around the web and came across this very long article. The last section is probably the most interesting to me:

http://www.tonymarston.net/php-mysql/hero-or-heretic.html

In a nutshell, this is a sentiment I was trying to put forth here (but not nearly as eloquently):

Programmer productivity takes preference over paradigm purity.

Jason_Batten

I find it really frustrating that I can't use these new class tools in PHP4. I wish everybody would hurry the heck up and upgrade their servers! Argh!!!!!!!

www.servage.net 😃

vaaaska

I tend to stick with a procedural framework rather than joining the paradigm team (obviously), but I was a little embarassed the other day when I finally got it. Patterns and their relevance to OOP.

Ok, now I see just why we're suddenly hearing about it so much. But, I still feel that migration to PHP5 is happening too slow on webhhosts out there and this is holding alot of people back. My host was very nice about the subject and is doing some research just to be sure it doesn't blow up their gazillion servers when they upgrade.

Web app makers still have their hands tied for the most part though...