laserlight wrote:John Ousterhout, as in Ousterhout's dichotomy?
Yup, that's the guy.
PHP: Programming or Scripting ?
It's needed to explain the differences to some people. e.g. clients.
Unfortunately even agreeing on what the differences are in the first place is a problem. How can we explain to clients what we dont quite agree on in the first place, unless we explain so much that it becomes useless to have the differences encapsulated in two terms?
Or, we only give our opinion, and the client gets confused when another developer provides another opinion.
EDIT:
Just noticed...
Jason Batten
forever learning...Jason Batten's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 666
run!!! 
I take back what I said before.
You should never be explaining that stuff to clients. Why would you be? lol
Let me think of a more worthy reply... *puts on his horns :evilgrin: & has a think
why would you talk to your clients in techno babble anyways? You talk to them in ways they can understand; usually this means business babble. Unless you client is a programmer or tech geek, there really isn't much point in speaking a foreign language to them.
Exactly, hence my "taking back" of the comment.
Although it depends on your clients. E.g. My primary client is not the average "Joe Shmoe".
For some reason, some people tend to see "scripting language" as a degrading term. I don't see it that way, just as a definition of the languages "limitations"?
I wish to back down and away from this topic before someone with more programming knowledge and experience kicks my arse runs away flailing his arms in the air
I think someone needs to explain all this to the ASP/JSP/C++/C# etc programmers who see PHP as a "lesser" language. Just take a look at any PHP story on slashdot for evidence (mind you - everything on slashdot is like this. That site brings out the worst in fanboyism. Fanboys of any persuasion make me sick).
As with anything, PHP is just a tool. I've seen poorly written systems in all languages. The quality of a system is down to the skills of the programmer (at least thats what I tell the boss when trying to justify another pay rise 
)
I think someone needs to explain all this to the ASP/JSP/C++/C# etc programmers who see PHP as a "lesser" language
Don't worry, even paranoids sometime have "real" enemies
I am primarily a windows programmer, and I hate to tell you, there is little to no "anti-php" noise in any windows developer forums. Extremely vocal advocacy is much more prevalent in the OS world.
I do both worlds, and I like PHP and I like ASP and I like VB. They are all pretty good tools to get stuff done.
Just to be clear. ASP is not a language, it is a framework used by scripting languages (vbscript, jscript, python) to build web applications. ASP.NET is also a framework not a language, supporting the C#, and VB.NET languages.
Bit of subject but pff.
And now I think .net supports real languages, like PHP! haha, just kidding (about the real languages part, not the .net supporting it).
I always figured, if your vars have $ in front of them you're like using a scripting language.
OTOH, I've yet to meet the REAL language that handles mixed (numeric / text indexed), unbalanced arrays like php does. It seems weird and goofy at first, but a lot of data structures are naturally pretty danged goofy too.
I love to watch a Java or Perl develop while you explain how an LDAP object that is returned as an array is put together. It's fun to watch people's head asplode (figuratively, of course) when they first encounter that particular bit of weirdness.
Just to be clear. ASP is not a language, it is a framework used by scripting languages (vbscript, jscript, python) to build web applications. ASP.NET is also a framework not a language, supporting the C#, and VB.NET languages.
And PHP is a framework used by the php scripting language.
Conceptually asp and php are pretty much the same. PHP relies more on functions built in the php language, ASP relies more on extensible components from outside sources.
Actually, PHP has several real frameworks available for it. One of the more interesting ones is greenorange which is a framework and an IDE via web interface all rolled into one.
I would actually say that php can be used to build its own framework, but PHP in and of itself is kinda a half-framework, considering all the external packages it can incorporate, like libdb, url wrappers, ldap interface, PDO db interface etc...
But a framework generally includes larger things like form builders and such.
I just visited the greenorange site. Oops, I can't even look at the documentation without registering first, and I don't intend to register on a site when I don't have a clue what it's about.
That's only the overview doc, and I'm not sure why they implemented that. It wasn't there before. the technical docs which tell you how to actually use it, are free and open.
I'm willing to be this had something to do about people spamming comments or something.
Note that it is licensed GPL...
I always figured, if your vars have $ in front of them you're like using a scripting language.
I propose that PHP6 use variables that start with a ! so as to make it a Real Programming Language.
if ($isset(!_GET['foo'])) {
echo "empty";
} else {
echo (!_GET['foo'] == 0) ! "nothing" : "something";
}Doug G wrote:PHP relies more on functions built in the php language, ASP relies more on extensible components from outside sources.
Doesn't PHP use the functions from the Zend platform ?
Doug G wrote:And PHP is a framework used by the php scripting language.
I thought we were talking about the PHP language, and whether it's a scripting language or a programming language. Who's idea was it to make the runtime environment an issue?
Is that the difference? That a scripting language is interpreted at runtime (and so potentially has the ability to rewrite itself at runtime), and a programming language is compiled to native machine code first? Them's very deep and sticky waters to be getting into - and certainly aren't going to be covered by a single one-or-the-other distinction.
Programming is programming. Trying to make distinctions like that is not worth the bandwidth, imo.
laserlight wrote:I propose that PHP6 use variables that start with a ! so as to make it a Real Programming Language.
if ($isset(!_GET['foo'])) { echo "empty"; } else { echo (!_GET['foo'] == 0) ! "nothing" : "something"; }
Yowsa! 
And then, for PHP7, I propose we stop wasting money on wine, women, and song (and anything other than food, clothing, and shelter) and send the extra to Weedpacket as a commission to write an INTERCAL Compatibility Layer/Module...
I propose we stop wasting money on wine, women, and song
You pay for women eh? well @ 14.95 / month it is a bargain!
Jason Batten wrote:You pay for women eh?
Well, buddy, I married one, and believe me, when you marry one, you pay ... (and, if you've good sense, you don't "pay" anyone else .... 
)
A few folks argue it might be cheaper, in the long run, and in terms not only financial, but personal, to just work hard and save your cash for an, um, "pro" whenever, as our friends across the pond might say, you get a "fancy" to play "slap and tickle". Can't say as I agree, necessarily; but I'll not come knocking on your door at midnight to see who you're with, either. Suffice it to say that generally, there have been laws about that sort of thing, and most societies would do well to study the issue in depth before they encourage/legalize/normalize it. But now we're way OT, even for the EL ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug G
And PHP is a framework used by the php scripting language.
[/quote]
Weedpacket wrote:I thought we were talking about the PHP language, and whether it's a scripting language or a programming language. Who's idea was it to make the runtime environment an issue?
Is that the difference? That a scripting language is interpreted at runtime (and so potentially has the ability to rewrite itself at runtime), and a programming language is compiled to native machine code first? Them's very deep and sticky waters to be getting into - and certainly aren't going to be covered by a single one-or-the-other distinction.
Programming is programming. Trying to make distinctions like that is not worth the bandwidth, imo.
When you click reply quotes in the post don't make it to the reply page. And my entire post which you partially quoted was
Quote:
Just to be clear. ASP is not a language, it is a framework used by scripting languages (vbscript, jscript, python) to build web applications. ASP.NET is also a framework not a language, supporting the C#, and VB.NET languages.And PHP is a framework used by the php scripting language.
Conceptually asp and php are pretty much the same. PHP relies more on functions built in the php language, ASP relies more on extensible components from outside sources.
I was only replying that php and asp are extremely similar environments when used by a web server.
Programming is programming. Trying to make distinctions like that is not worth the bandwidth, imo.
Ditto. I'm even a member of the group that thinks html is programming too