RTFM?

[sid]

not wanting to whine, but it seems to me as if more and more people are coming here for advice these days, which could be found within 10 seconds via google, php.net, wikipedia or the boards search function. does anyone share this experience?
it also seems that a lot of newbies ask for full custom application development nowadays...
just venting :-P

rock on.

[Weedpacket]

I'd sooner chew my own leg off than ask some of the questions that get asked here.

[Vaskerville]

How do I make my ajax do stuff with PHP? You know, stuff.

[Piranha]

Yep, it seems that A LOT of people don't bother to try to solve their problems, it is easier to ask on a forum and get spoon fed. And lots don't even seem to try out the answer they get, it's like we should do everything including debug their variable names and burp them. The worst is that when you suggest that they should try first, be more specific and so on they get mad.

I say RTFM and DAFT before asking anything. And if it is obvious that they haven't it should be ok to say so.

[NogDog]

Theoretically, most coding questions here could be answered by a combination of RTFM and Googling, could they not? Where do you draw the line between those that you consider "valid" and those which are worth only a "RTFM" response?

Personally, I don't lose any sleep over it. If I feel inclined to help some poster, I do. If I don't, I ignore it and move on to the next thread title that interests me. Tearing my hair out because I think someone should have tried to solve a problem the way I would try to solve it and telling them simply to "RTFM" neither helps the poster nor anyone else (unless it somehow boosts my ego), since such people probably are not going to RTFM anyway merely because I told them to.

(Don't get me wrong: there are many posts here and on other forums I frequent that amaze me with how basic their problems are and how obvious the solution would seem to be if the poster had applied him/herself to just a little self-education in the subject at question -- I just don't worry about it.)

[banzaimonkey]

Something you have to keep in mind is that things that are painfully obvious to people who already know what they're doing are not painfully obvious to people who are learning how to do something (especially when that something is programming). Once you've learned some of the basics, it becomes easier, but if someone is trying to learn to program without any formal education or a well-written book, it's very difficult.

One of the biggest things that a formal education or book will provide you is definitions and explanations of common jargon and vocabulary; in essence, they provide you with context. The particularly tricky thing with technical subjects is that the words that are used to talk about them are not new words; they are common words used with different meanings. Someone without experience in a given area who's trying to find out what a particular word (or worse, an acronym) means in that context does not have a frame of reference to evaluate whether or not the information they're finding in Google is relevant at all.

Even with my extensive experience regarding computers, I'll often come across things I've never even heard about before. Given my experience, I usually have enough context in order to be able to find out the answers on my own. Sometimes, though, I can't find answers. I can imagine the even more frustrating experience of someone who has no context at all. Even people with expert-level knowledge don't know everything there is to know on a subject, particularly one that changes as rapidly as IT. Having a little patience and empathy can go a long way.

[Piranha]

Don't get me wrong. I don't want to just type RTFM to every question, if I did then I would not be here trying to help when I can. In fact, I have on a few occations tried to learn programming myself, but failed without the help of a teacher (even when I have had a book). I won't say I remember what a struggle it was when I didn't know, I only say that I remember that it is a struggle.

But I still feel that some people ask questions as a first solution, not even trying to find an answer first. One example is questions about how to format a date, if they had bothered to read about the date function they would at least be able to say "I tried to do like this, but it didn't work". Another example is when they post a error message and it is painfully clear that they haven't even used google to find the error message and the cause. For a first time poster it is ok, but a frequent poster that still behaves this way need to understand that there are other ways to seek information.

Now, there are not many questions I want to answer with RTFM or DAFT. In the list of today's posts I can't find a single one.

[Weedpacket]

banzaimonkey wrote:

Something you have to keep in mind is that things that are painfully obvious to people who already know what they're doing are not painfully obvious to people who are learning how to do something

If they're trying to learn programming then by now they should have at least heard of Google. And having heard of Google they should not have to go to a forum to ask "How do I find the size of a file in PHP?"

...the information they're finding in Google...

You're making a BIG assumption here. Experience leads me to think that it's unwarranted.

Some people just cannot be arsed to attempt to find an answer for themselves. They don't care how much drool they leave on the keyboard while they wait for someone else to type "file size php" into Google for them.

And you think these people want to learn to program? These are people for whom basic problem solving skills are the blackest of black arts.

...without any formal education...

You're right on that; from what they've chosen to show of themselves to the world I strongly suspect some of them dropped out of the formal education system sometime around the age of seven.

[Vaskerville]

I don't want to recall the past, but I sucked so bad at this stuff for a long time. I couldn't deal with the manual because I couldn't understand it...and I was unable to formulate questions in intelligent ways.

I was trying...but I really sucked that bad.

Of course, that was then...I'm pretty ok with this stuff now.

I have alot of sympathy for people trying to learn...it's the questions like the one I posted above that rattle me.

Edit: And for the record, I managed to get a few years beyond grade 7. 😉

[tekky]

If you really want a blast from the past regarding this topic... do search in echo lounge for mine and LordShryku... we found some doozies and at that time it was acceptable (in a very non accepted way) to have a "rant thread" that we linked to all the idiots threads... Until one found the thread and got offended, then we kinda stopped...

My distincting between those to help and those to ridicule comes from the ones who attempt to help themselves get helped, those who dont even show the slightest effort of lifting a finger more than it takes to type "help me" get ridiculed.

[NogDog]

Weedpacket wrote:

If they're trying to learn programming then by now they should have at least heard of Google. And having heard of Google they should not have to go to a forum to ask "How do I find the size of a file in PHP?"

You're making a BIG assumption here. Experience leads me to think that it's unwarranted....

Of course, you're making a bit of an assumption here that anyone who posts here is "trying to learn programming." Experience leads me to think that not a few posters couldn't care less about learning programming, just getting some script they found to do whatever it is they want, without having to pay someone who has learned programming to do it for them. 😉

[LordShryku]

Some things never change...

You can usual see a difference between someone who's trying to learn and someone who just pulled a script off the internet and posted it here saying "why doesn't this work". The latter did get a verbal lashing sometimes :evilgrin:

[tekky]

LordShryku wrote:

Some things never change...

You can usual see a difference between someone who's trying to learn and someone who just pulled a script off the internet and posted it here saying "why doesn't this work". The latter did get a verbal lashing sometimes :evilgrin:

Hey ol' buddy. Maybe we can terrorize some of these folks again sometime soon 😉

[dalecosp]

banzaimonkey wrote:

Having a little patience and empathy can go a long way.

True dat.

I think you'll find it pretty often here, too.

But, when Weed talks about experience, it's worth listening to. I thank God every time I think about the fact that, when I was noobish here (err, last week? 😃 ), people like Weedpacket answered my questions in a way that made me, a la"Alice in Wonderland", "curiouser and curiouser".

I took the fishing lessons, and now I occasionally put dinner on the table with my PHP "fish".

However, the thread is about people who don't do that.

I don't know if there's more of these people here these days, or not. Anybody got stats on users here?

Hmm, nevermind. I'll USTL .... 😃