rulian wrote:

From what I can tell so far, Rails is basically a very general Pre-Assembled package for web applications, or in a sense, a small short cut to programming, or even a way to develop for people who dont konw how to develop.

Not read through the whole thread but I just noticed this... funnily enough its "php developers" that I've noticed don't know how to develop. Hence the quotes because I've met allot of people that claim to be but they really don't know what they are doing.

I'm talking about the person that Google's for something similar, hacks at it until it eventually (kinda) works.

I'm actually trying to decide on a new language to learn this summer and I have been thinking about RoR, however I'm not sure yet.

    dougal85 wrote:

    I'm actually trying to decide on a new language to learn this summer and I have been thinking about RoR, however I'm not sure yet.

    Just remember that the language is called Ruby, and that Rails (RoR) is just a web development framework implemented in it (anyone would think that's all Ruby is used for).

    If you're looking for a new language to learn, why not one that's a bit different? Like Haskell? Or Mercury? Or XSLT? Or Lisp? Get a look at programming from a different perspective.

      dougal85 wrote:

      I'm actually trying to decide on a new language to learn this summer and I have been thinking about RoR, however I'm not sure yet.

      If you're going to learn a new language, you might as well go for something that will help you get a job (as a fellow UK resident and web developer, I would heavily advise this). Why not look at ASP or ASP.NET? There are quite a few jobs going with these technologies, people over here (as I guess anywhere) are still not quite trusting PHP just yet

        Weedpacket wrote:

        Just remember that the language is called Ruby

        Very true, I say RoR because I would only be learning it from the web perspective. If regular Ruby can be used for web development that I guess I've missed something!

        Has anybody tried Grails? aka Groovy on Rails - changed the name because the RoR people where not happy. One of my lecturers loves it and pushes it about as hard as he can.

        piersk wrote:

        Why not look at ASP or ASP.NET?

        I think that's what I think I'm going to do to be honest. I am tempted to sign up to http://www.learnvisualstudio.net/ - $70 a year... what's that £35-£40... that's nothing. I'm not sure how good they really are mind you but the example video's look quite good. I have some (limited) experience with C# too, so I just need to get more familiar with the framework.

          dougal85 wrote:

          Very true, I say RoR because I would only be learning it from the web perspective. If regular Ruby can be used for web development that I guess I've missed something!

          Well, unless RoR relies on something other than Ruby to do what it does, then a bit of logical thought leads to the conclusion that "regular" Ruby can be used for web development. Proof is by construction: first, implement Ruby on Rails in Ruby....

            Sometimes these "which language is better" discussions make me think of a bunch of mechanics arguing as to whether the best way to tighten a nut is with a wrench, a socket wrench, an adjustable wrench, a torque wrench, an air compressor driven impact wrench, or a pair of channel-lock pliers. The usual result is that a good, experienced mechanic will be able to correctly tighten that nut with any of those tools, whereas the really poor mechanic will screw it up regardless of which tool he chooses (it won't be tight enough, or he'll strip the threads, or ruin the nut).

            Then of course there will be that one mechanic who will want to use his machine shop to create a new tool specificaly customized for tightening that specific nut, and a week after all the other mechanics have moved on to something else, he will have successfully done so.

              NogDog wrote:

              Sometimes these "which language is better" discussions make me think of a bunch of mechanics arguing as to whether the best way to tighten a nut is with a wrench, a socket wrench, an adjustable wrench, a torque wrench, an air compressor driven impact wrench, or a pair of channel-lock pliers. The usual result is that a good, experienced mechanic will be able to correctly tighten that nut with any of those tools, whereas the really poor mechanic will screw it up regardless of which tool he chooses (it won't be tight enough, or he'll strip the threads, or ruin the nut).

              Then of course there will be that one mechanic who will want to use his machine shop to create a new tool specificaly customized for tightening that specific nut, and a week after all the other mechanics have moved on to something else, he will have successfully done so.

              Most of the mechanics I've seen use air compressor driven impact wrenches. They're interested in getting things done quickly.

              Yes, Ruby can used for web development. Probably just about any language can, via CGI.

                csn wrote:

                Most of the mechanics I've seen use air compressor driven impact wrenches. They're interested in getting things done quickly....

                Which probably means sometimes they over-tighten certain things in the name of speed. Had that happen to a friend: got an oil change, whoever did it overtightened the oil pan drain plug, partially stripping the screw and cracking the seal. "Fortunately" it only resulted in a lot of oil on his driveway before he had a chance to do something nasty to his engine.

                  NogDog wrote:

                  Which probably means sometimes they over-tighten certain things in the name of speed. Had that happen to a friend: got an oil change, whoever did it overtightened the oil pan drain plug, partially stripping the screw and cracking the seal. "Fortunately" it only resulted in a lot of oil on his driveway before he had a chance to do something nasty to his engine.

                  That sucks. I thought those wrenches released at certain torques. Never had a problem myself.

                    csn wrote:

                    That sucks. I thought those wrenches released at certain torques. Never had a problem myself.

                    That presumes whoever was using the wrench set it to the correct torque. (I don't know in the case I cited what type of wrench was used, just that it was over-tightened. Oh, and sorry to be getting off-topic, but then we are in the Echo Lounge. 🙂 )

                      NogDog wrote:

                      Which probably means sometimes they over-tighten certain things in the name of speed.

                      Like when you're hundreds of kilometres from civilisation and you're changing a flat tyre and guess what was used to tighten the wheel nuts at the last service?

                      Yaaay.

                        2 months later

                        Okay, I just saw a demo on Rails and heard this guy bragging about all the coding he's not doing and how automatic all the rails stuff was...... I just thought it was ass backwards, he's bragging about NOT doing anything and yet calls himself a programmer? I'm sure Ruby is just as powerful of a language, and a developer can surely use Rails effectively, but I dont agree with them claiming all that "mess" PHP creates is what makes Rails better, first of all, the mess has nothing to do with PHP but the programmer, and I'm just not sure you can get a streamlined, customized solution to a problem from an automated development platform.

                        "changing databases is as easy as changing the confirguration"
                        well... that's not a good thing, since db's behave and react differently, i dont see you optimizing anything from the demo I saw in rails.

                        I guess the bottom line is, programming isnt a 1 size fits all thing.

                        To be honest, I'm not even sure why you would want a off the shelf framework for large websites to begin with.

                          rulian wrote:

                          To be honest, I'm not even sure why you would want a off the shelf framework for large websites to begin with.

                          Anyone who can write a shell script unfortunately can claim to be a developer. Though I am not against off the shelf frameworks I do have a mistrust to them due to the adage "You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time".

                          Developing any web framework for use by the masses involves developing for the majority, which I believe will always leave areas either mediocre, over engineered or full of spaghetti/bloat. Spaghetti/bloat due to the weight of the unused technology which will in time be added to cater for others, or the not thought out possible requirements at the start which cause a nasty ripple later.

                          Development involves a lot of precognition and trying to imagine what all the people use now, what all the people will possibly want to use in the future and then looking at the flaws/positives in current technological approaches is a real head hurter. I think a packaged framework will make my life easy at the start but at some point it will all go up hill due to I can no longer work within it's stream but I have to start circumventing the framework to implement features.

                          The benefits of a framework, be it Zend of ROR is that there is a wellish known foundation layer that the application is built upon that constricts a developer to follow a pattern so that another developer who has experience with the framework can pick it up. Some developers never/cannot write re-usable code so if a monkey is let loose then the cage the framework represents can be quite handy. Especially from an employers point of view as they have a basic standard of development guaranteed, which raw PHP does not offer.

                            dougal85 wrote:

                            I think that's what I think I'm going to do to be honest. I am tempted to sign up to http://www.learnvisualstudio.net/ - $70 a year... what's that £35-£40... that's nothing. I'm not sure how good they really are mind you but the example video's look quite good. I have some (limited) experience with C# too, so I just need to get more familiar with the framework.

                            Don't waste your money. I had some freebie access from there when I registered VS2005. Very basic and about the same as the VS stuff you can get for free from MS websites and the VS documentation and demos.

                            If you want to spend money on learning .NET etc then buy a good book from a reputable publisher that will deal with the advanced topics you need.

                              Roger Ramjet wrote:

                              Don't waste your money. I had some freebie access from there when I registered VS2005. Very basic and about the same as the VS stuff you can get for free from MS websites and the VS documentation and demos.

                              If you want to spend money on learning .NET etc then buy a good book from a reputable publisher that will deal with the advanced topics you need.

                              I managed to get access to try it out for a while with a friends account. Your right, it is quite basic and its more about using the tools in VS than programming. That's the biggest dislike I have when doing something in .NET - half the time you are clicking and looking for things in menu's etc. You don't even feel like your doing any programming sometimes...

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