Employment - how much does a degree matter?

[Bunkermaster]

applauds
funnily enough, when you think about programming and compare it to old time novels on magic, you start feeling a discomfortable parallel. We create artefacts with behaviors out of thin air and we can have them transform eachothers. We communicate with forbidden realms and we speak a language not quite that of humans.
A monkey can fly an airplane. I doubt a monkey could code even in cobol.

[piersk]

Bunkermaster wrote:

I doubt a monkey could code even in cobol.

I can't code in cobol. Does that make me a monkey?

[Bunkermaster]

me neither. let's go buy some peanuts and sit on a branch somewhere.

[FusionComputers]

Ok, fine... I'll rephrase. I'm a programmer, not an artist. I can't believe companies expect one to be both.

[Roger_Ramjet]

FusionComputers wrote:

Ok, fine... I'll rephrase. I'm a programmer, not an artist. I can't believe companies expect one to be both.

That is like saying you can't believe that people expect architects to design and build houses that are both beautiful to look at and comfortable to live in :rolleyes:

[Weedpacket]

Bunkermaster wrote:

We communicate with forbidden realms and we speak a language not quite that of humans.

And invoke daemons and refer to the best of us as "wizards".

let's go buy some peanuts and sit on a branch somewhere.

Love to join the two of you, but there's this script for "Hamlet" I've got to finish.

[FusionComputers]

Roger Ramjet wrote:

That is like saying you can't believe that people expect architects to design and build houses that are both beautiful to look at and comfortable to live in :rolleyes:

Technically, architects are artists. I'd like to see an architect try to write PHP, C, C++, Java, or otherwise. I can't draw. I can't create digital images. But I can write in several different programming languages. I'm saying that the expectation that programmers should also somehow be able to design graphics, when all (probably most) can't, is flawed.

[piersk]

FusionComputers wrote:

Technically, architects are artists. I'd like to see an architect try to write PHP, C, C++, Java, or otherwise. I can't draw. I can't create digital images. But I can write in several different programming languages. I'm saying that the expectation that programmers should also somehow be able to design graphics, when all (probably most) can't, is flawed.

Actually, I know an architect that can do PHP and Java. Would you like his number?

[FusionComputers]

Good for him. And no.

[piersk]

What I was implying was that actually you can be an artist and code. And be a coder and do design stuff. There's no black and white solution. I don't see why a programmer shouldn't be expected to design graphics. What about computer game programmers? Some of the ones for the smaller companies design as well as program the games. I don't think that this expectation is flawed.

[Weedpacket]

You might not be able to paint the Cistine Chapel but you should at least be able to paint a house.

[stolzyboy]

Relating to Weedpacket's analogy... you should be able to if nothing else, create a decent design (clean, neat, functional). You need not "create" all the images, there are millions of images out there you can manipulate with Photoshop, or the like, to your expectations.

I'm by far no designer, but I can manage to pull of a decent design when I don't have a designer at my disposal. I will definitely use a designer if there is one available, but I can do it in a pinch.

FWIW, I can't draw a stickman to save my life.

[dougal85]

Back to the original point of the thread. Surely a degree like any other academic qualification is just a way to step forward. You do well at high school to get into uni you get your degree to get a jump start into the working world.

You can go in without a degree but it will be easier if you have one, especially for the popular job interviews. Then after you get your first bit of real experience - surely then the degree is irrelevant.

I'm about to start my masters degree, I'm not only doing it to help me with jobs but because I've enjoyed my time at university and after seeing some of the people that have managed to scrape through an honours degree I want a masters so I can feel slightly more superior. I would do a PhD just so I could be called a Dr if I had the patience to spend a few years on it.

I find it amusing that I've only used PHP in the work place and its one of the few languages that I know and I have had no training in (ie. self taught). However it does appear in the Masters, so that module will be interesting (well probably not).

[Bunkermaster]

I found it impossible to follow a course to validate my academic level equivalence. Having someone -who hasn't touched anything computer related more complicated than word- teach me about software design (using methods we concidered out dated in 1996) iritates me and I end up either kicked of the course or in a living hell of fellow students' questioning.

[dougal85]

This is very true but sometimes you learn things and university gave me enough time to learn more outside of university.

The only module I remember being useful was a Database module in second year, I still remember it when I'm doing SQL queries and such as we went over so many different types.

[leatherback]

It's interesting to see that there are still people out there who think that some time spent in higher education is a waste of time. I will not suggest that everybody should go do a PhD (Those were 4 years spent well for me however), but certainly get a bachelors helps you a long way.

However.. To get most out of it.. SPent some time outside the eductaion system. I realize it is hard to get back into studies after spending 2 years working earning money, but it will tell you much better then any college professor what is usefull to pick up, and what to ignore.

I am getting to the point that employers start asking me to work for them. And not in the fields that I did in university. They just realize that if you have the ability to get a MSc/MSc/PhD in some field, that you will have no problem picking up the required skills in the job they have in mind for you. That is the main reason for a degree. However, after spending say 5-10 years working in a field, most employers would rather know your work than your degree. But unfortunately.. The pencil-pushers usually want to see your degree-label too, and they make the first cut.

As for being a graphics designer and a programmer.. I think it really depends on the size of your firm. I ran a small web design com. during my studies. I worked on it alone, and as such my websites were boring, dull design. Because I cannot do graphics design. However the code worked, the websites functioned, and my clients always came back to me when they needed adjustements. However, my cousin started a webcomp. He (Graphics BSc), a software engineer and a marketing guy. You'd say that in the past 8 years they became millionaires. But nope. They were spoiled, thought the world of themselves, and wrecked to comp. by being stuck up. So a degree is not the answer to a prayer especially in more traditional lines of work. It is a ticket through the door. But in web-related stuff, having an entry on your resume stating that you started a website such as facebook will help you better in the long run, in my view.

J.

[Weedpacket]

leatherback wrote:

However.. To get most out of it.. SPent some time outside the eductaion system.

I'd add: while you're in it, do more than just the required curricular work; the fact that "university" is a cognate of "universe" should be a hint. But that depends on what else is going on where you are studying.

Then again, when I was studying, one requisite paper came in two parts; one taught by the department of Mathematics and the other by the school of Philosophy. An interdisciplinary outlook was kind of built in to the whole degree process.

[atencorps]

Knowledge counts for alot more than University degree , Especially something like PHP. If you can code its pretty easy to get the needed experience by calling smaller software design firms

[dougal85]

leatherback wrote:

I ran a small web design com. during my studies. I worked on it alone, and as such my websites were boring, dull design. Because I cannot do graphics design. However the code worked, the websites functioned, and my clients always came back to me when they needed adjustments.

This is also a very good way to get some experience while at university. Since usually companies look for a degree + some experience. This is what I have been doing over the last year and plan to during my Msc too, if I have time.

I'm starting my post grad masters i 'Advanced Software Engineering' in September. I wonder how much that will help me. I'm mainly doing it because I enjoy it.

atencorps wrote:

Knowledge counts for alot more than University degree , Especially something like PHP. If you can code its pretty easy to get the needed experience by calling smaller software design firms

This is true and I do this while I'm at university. However a degree should make this process a bit faster as its proof of the ability to learn Knowledge.

[Vaskerville]

The problem with this debate is that it regards two industries (web programming and design) that don't require degrees. The key to the door is proven experience - here, look at my work.

But, design is a giant industry...there are tons of places where you wouldn't last a day without a degree or concrete experience.

I doubt one could write an Adobe app without a degree to verse them in the techniques, but I could be wrong as well.

I certainly would not want my doctor or attorney to have been home schooled.