Moving beyond PHP

rulian

Question for all you cross language folk.
I'm looking to expand my abilities beyond web languages and get at some more core languages. However, which language I should pursue I'm not sure on. I woudl like to be able to be cross platform, but i'll settle for something that more closely resembles what I'm use to php and js. Which would make me think .net and visual basics correct? How much of a leap is it from PHP to C++, i'm sure it's huge and any language will be a bigger challange then what I've been exposed to. But basically I want to be able to make installable software to work on windows (and hopefully macs)
What am I looking at here in terms of programs I need, resources and such. I would like to maintain database capabilities without having to install mysql on the machines that run my programs.

So whats a good starting point?

dougal85

Java?

Let me expand a little more on that. lol. I was being lazy but now I feel like writing.

It depends on your programming style, if you write PHP with a strong OO influence Java would be a fairly obvious progression (or C#.NET - vb.net is quite different and quite ugly I think).

However, if you prefer a more procedural style to your code then you might find something like C++ easier.

Java is the easiest to make cross platform. It is also very widely used for so many things. Mobile, Desktop, Web....

What type of things do you want to make? or do you just want to learn?

If you want to be a bit more ambitious why not go for something like Python, Ruby or Groovy.

iceomnia

Hi rulian,

I have recently started with c#, there are many similarities between the two.

However, the first and most annoying thing is that you have to declare all variables before using them like so:


// c# code - Please don't anybody asmume this is php

public string variable;

// then to use it, you must enter a string:

variable = 'string value';

// the following would throw an Exception (Error) and that is the best thing about C#

variabe = 3; // Integer wouldn't load into the variable.

Also, c# is fully object-orientated meaning that everything is contained in NameSpaces, Classes & Class Methods (functions).

Try downloading the new Microsoft Visual c# Express from their website.

NogDog

If marketability is a factor, then probably C++/C# would be the first choice, with Java a very close second.

If that's not a concern, then you could take up Ruby as a way to learn more about OOP, start using the Rails framework, and then climb your ivory tower and start sneering at all us PHP peons like the rest of the RoR folks. 😉

rulian

@
I really dont have a technique preference. I tend to use them as neccessary, I guess I dont OO unless it offers a benefit but my procedural stuff is often encompassed in OO techniques, (basically I love arrays)

I'm looking to make lets say.. a photo album style program. Or a customer database program. Nothing greatly complicated but I dont want them to be web based as they need to work alot faster then web based ones. Plus I would like access to the system for saving and reading files, and more advanced object handling abilities like images and text files.

I dont know much about Java other then I have to install it on my computer every time I reformat, do users have to install java before running java programs correct?

@
I was just taking a c# tutorial
I was unclear on namespaces but figured it was a part of the library I had to include <iostream> and it did mention visual c# express I guess I'll give it a shot as well.

@
I did have brief fling with Ruby as my job requested it. I decided against it cause I felt i would be spending my time learning a language to do the same thing as I could in php. I could have been wrong but I want to bridge away from web languages I guess. If I can find a bridge between the two the would be great so my applications can live on local and have access to a central web based database?

@everyone
I would really want to takle the language that will help me kinda hit the ground running I woudl have to say. I think i have a some good general programming practises and mindset in place I am just looking to translate them now. Or am I in over my head?

NogDog

Whatever you go with, it should be OOP. As far as platform-independence goes,Java is probably better than the various C's, as the Java byte code is portable to any system running Java (just like PHP source code is portable to any system running PHP), whereas C programs have to be compiled for each target platform. This is not a huge issue since there are C compilers for everything out there, it's just more of a headache if you're desire is to be platform-independent.

dougal85

rulian wrote:
@

cough Dougal cough

rulian wrote:
I really dont have a technique preference. I tend to use them as neccessary, I guess I dont OO unless it offers a benefit but my procedural stuff is often encompassed in OO techniques, (basically I love arrays)

As NogDog said, an OO language would be best to learn. I'm guessing you like PHP/JavaScript arrays. Going to something like C#, Java, etc. you may find you hate the arrays. They are far less flexible as a staticly typed language. PHP being dynamic.

rulian wrote:
I dont know much about Java other then I have to install it on my computer every time I reformat, do users have to install java before running java programs correct?

Yes and no, there needs to be a Java Virtual Machine, but programs can be packaged up with it if needed. However, this is only really worthwhile on large programs as it adds about 120 (a guess) meg to the install. Most people have Java installed now I imagine, as you pretty much need it. I wonder what the stats are like...

http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2008/February/java.php

Acording to that, 93% of users have Java enabled in the broswer. That means they have it normally and some people probably turn it off in the browser (like me - I HATE java applets!)

So, I'd suggest you do Java or C#.

Out of the two, I think I prefer C#... although, a large part of that is to do with Visual studio being so nice to work with.
However, if you want to go cross platform and not be laughed at by open source people (lol) choose java.

cahva

I recommend Python. It's multiplatform and fun to code because its language syntax is so great. Its easy to learn and will bend to almost anything: games, utilities, web.. you name it. And mentioning web I cannot pass without mentioning how wonderfull Python based framework called "Django" is, which I have learned to love past couple of months. Superb documentation and community.

Heres some links:

http://www.python.org/ - main page

http://www.djangoproject.com/ - main page for Django
http://www.djangobook.com/ - online free book for Django, great!

I myself have PHP and various Basic language background. I have tried Java, C and its variants, assembler etc. but none of those was my taste and got frustrated at some point with those(too steap learning curve, bad documentation ,my own stupidity etc.).

With python I felt almost immediately at home. Good documentation, good community, tons of external packages,multiplatform and more importantly, its fun to code 🙂

rulian

@
Sorry about that, forgot to mention i'm also dyslexic! Which is great for a programmer.

Python looks interesting, I'll take a look at that Java and C#
Are all these free to develop in, distribute? I just saw that Python was available for commercial use.

I am definately interested in Java as well, are there things I can do with one language that I cant do with others?

laserlight

However, if you prefer a more procedural style to your code then you might find something like C++ easier.

It sounds like you are mixing up C and C++. C++ is an object oriented language, or perhaps a "multi-paradigm" language in that it has first class support for other paradigms (mainly procedural and generic programming). C only has first class support for procedural programming (and possibly object based programming), but of course you can use object oriented programming in C if you really wanted to.

dougal85

laserlight wrote:
It sounds like you are mixing up C and C++. C++ is an object oriented language, or perhaps a "multi-paradigm" language in that it has first class support for other paradigms (mainly procedural and generic programming). C only has first class support for procedural programming (and possibly object based programming), but of course you can use object oriented programming in C if you really wanted to.

Oops, your right. I wasn't clear enough on that one.

rulian wrote:
@
Sorry about that, forgot to mention i'm also dyslexic! Which is great for a programmer.

Python looks interesting, I'll take a look at that Java and C#
Are all these free to develop in, distribute? I just saw that Python was available for commercial use.

I am definitely interested in Java as well, are there things I can do with one language that I cant do with others?

Don't worry about the name, I get it frequently even with non-dyslexics.

In terms of the code and the programming style there will be huge differences. However, in terms on what you actually produce and what the end user gets, things will be fairly similar. However, for example if you are doing all your programming on windows, then something like visual studio makes making the layout of the interface and so on VERY easy. It's never as easy in other languages although I believe there are some good plug-ins for Eclipse (primarily a Java IDE) for this - I've not used any that are that great.

In terms of distribution... Java and Python you have no restrictions on (i believe) however with Visual Studio - if you use the express edition you do not have the license to sell your software. You can give it away for free. If you want to make commercial products in Visual Studio you need to buy one of the full versions.

Why not spend a day on each and have a play and see how they feel? It's great to try out a number of different languages when your a programming - I think it helps you out greatly. I wouldn't say I know loads of languages, but I have tried many just to get a bit of a feel and understanding for them.

laserlight

however with Visual Studio - if you use the express edition you do not have the license to sell your software.

That is not true. See the Visual Studio Express Editions FAQ:

7. Can I use Express Editions for commercial use?

Yes, there are no licensing restrictions for applications built using Visual Studio Express Editions.

rulian

Thanks for all your help
I think I will take your advice and explore all of them, probably start with python and java and visual studio. Are there any special platforms or frameworks I should look into as well that will help me learn and produce faster?

dougal85

I would learn the 'standard' features to begin with - so you understand the language and you don't rely on a framework.

Having said that, C# comes with the ASP.NET framework as standard and Java has a huge class library too. I don't know that much about python.

I guess the best idea is to set yourself some small goals and go for them. See what language you can make a hello world in easiest 😉

You might want to try and find online communities like PHPBuilder, I don't know of any that are particularly good. Either that or just Google around for tutorials in a specific area.

oh and enjoy the coding! 🙂

rulian

by learning C do I also learn ASP cause that has been requested as well.
I've tried asp and found it's syntax much more taxing then php.

Thanks alot for the advice!

laserlight

by learning C do I also learn ASP cause that has been requested as well.

You need to be clear: C is not C#. C# is not ASP.NET, but from what I understand you can use it with the ASP.NET framework (and of course the .NET framework in general). ASP.NET is not ASP, which is its predecessor. ASP, like ASP.NET, is not a programming language, but a web application framework. C, C++, C#, Java and Python are programming languages. Eclipse and Visual Studio are integrated development environments.

dougal85

ASP is not a language, its more a framework for doing web apps. So, to use ASP.NET you need to know one of the languages supported by the .NET runtime. As of version 3.5 it includes;
C#, vb.NET, J# (java), IronRuby (Ruby), IronPython (python) and various others.

They have alternative names as they are Microsoft's implementation of the languages. Basically say you learned C# for desktop programming then you just need to learn the ASP.NET classes.

I have only tried C# for ASP.NET (and a little V😎

rulian

Really, that is something I did not know. My job at the request of clients who insisted we used asp for what ever reason has been pushing me to learn asp. The guy who actually does asp told me how he learned it be did not tell me it wasnt a language. It makes sense now because he also konws one of the C's

So what is the big difference between the C's? If I do go in to one am I looking at C, C# or C++

dougal85

Just as a note Classic ASP is very different from ASP.NET

C - old low level language. Has access to hardware all kinds of crazy stuff i don't understand

C++ - evolution of C, supporting OO, probably one of the most widely used languages (games are usually made in C++)

C# - Microsofts language, much more like Java (Going from C# to Java or vice-versa wouldn't be too hard a leap.) than C or C++.

laserlight

So what is the big difference between the C's? If I do go in to one am I looking at C, C# or C++

With C, the primary tools of the trade are functions and a stripped down version of classes that do not have member functions or the notion of private/protected/public visibility. You have to do your own memory management. C is often used for systems programming since it is relatively low level.

C++ is a superset of C except for several corner cases. It introduces classes of the OOP variety, templates for generic programming, and references. Like C, C++ trusts the programmer and does not attempt to protect you from yourself. You have to do your own memory management, but this is somewhat easier because C++ classes have destructors, thus you can associate the lifetime of a resource with that of an object (RAII).

C# has syntax based on C and C++, but is more like Java. It is an OO language with automatic garbage collection, and generally attempts to protect you from yourself. Like Java, C# is more typesafe than C++, since C++ maintains some backwards compatibility with C in that area.