Frameworks....

nawrik

All,

I'm really getting into PHP and slowly but surely beginning to understand the basics.

I'm currently getting to grips with basic OOP and was just wondering about frameworks and their place in a developers knowledgebase?

I suppose i'm a bit of a purist and when I learn something, I need to do it properly and in the correct order (if there is such a thing!)

Naturally through extensive searching and a small fortune spent on PHP books I quite often come across the use of Zend etc...

To date I have always skipped those chapters or hit the back button on those script examples....

What are peoples thoughts?

I somehow feel as though I'll be cheating by beginning to use frameworks and (most likely) come to rely on them so early in my learning....

BIOSTALL

For 7 years I had the same vision about frameworks and swore I would never use one:

a) Because, like you, I felt like it was cheating a bit and
b) I couldn't see how they would benefit me

But....

I recently started work for a new company who use the CodeIgniter framework and I now take it all back!!

I think it's important that you still know how stuff works with pure PHP such as file uploads, sending of emails, using sessions and cookies etc etc but for large applications, frameworks definitely are a benefit.

I don't think I'd use one for a small site/application but for larger ones in the long run it saves time and forces you to code consistently. It also takes care of things like error handling and comes with loads of built in libraries (eg. Shopping carts).

I haven't tried Zend, CakePHP or any other frameworks but I must say, I think CodeIgniter as a first framework definitely teaches you the basics of working with frameworks as I believe it's the simplest.

Like I say though, I still think it's important you understand how stuff works regardless of frameworks if you're looking at coding in PHP for years to come.

Hope that helps somewhat.

NogDog

Frameworks take care of many common tasks as well as providing a pre-built organization to your application (usually along the MVC model these days). This can be a big benefit when working on non-trivial projects (for some value of "non-trivial"), both in terms of time and in terms of robustness (you're using a lot of code which presumably has been well tested and well engineered).

To effectively use such a framework, I think you need some level of OOP proficiency (not necessarily an expert, but a good grasp of the essentials). There will also be some sort of learning curve to get up to speed with the ins and outs of a given framework, so your time savings the first time you use one may be offset to some degree, in part depending on the size of the project.

NogDog

BIOSTALL;10949365 wrote:
...
I recently started work for a new company who use the CodeIgniter framework and I now take it all back!!
...

I, too, am a fan of CI. There are a couple nice video tutorials that give you some idea of what it can do for you.

nawrik

Thank you for your swift replies.

I am intrigued by frameworks, but after your replies - I know i'm not ready to take it on board without detrimenting my growing 'core' programming abilities.

PHP and anything web really is a hobby, so there is no pressure from outside sources (such as work) to learn specific 'rules' - i'm just freestyling at the moment (reading 'winging it').

With no intentions to ever make a career out of it, I think i'll keep learning, sharing and developing. I love it, I just wish all those hours 'wasted' designing, writing and then re-writing code achieved something useful like pay the bills and not just increase my gray matter!

I'm still really getting to grips with the basics, I think I will be leaving the frameworks alone, quite possibly for a couple of years and revisit the idea then.

Again thank you. I intend to be hanging around PHP Builder a bit more, ripping info from the experienced and trying to help out in the newbie section.

Weedpacket

As a programming exercise, writing a new framework (that is actually usable!) is a triathlon.

There are two broad classes of framework; libraries that give you all the parts and all the tools and leave you to get on with it (e.g., Zend), and those that lay down a whole development process and operational infrastructure for you to add your intended behaviour to (e.g., symfony).

sohguanh

I believe frameworks are here to stay. It need not be specific to PHP alone. Python has their Django project and Perl has it's own and so does Java and so does C++. Almost all programming languages come with framework (Open or closed).

So I believe instead of learning the programming language syntax only, it is best to study how those framework works. Most are OOP and yes I believe framework really shine when you are doing a big project spanning thousands of lines involving tens and tens of developers.

So far have anyone found any framework that is NOT OOP in nature ?

Somehow I believe framework is deem 'heavy' in most embedded software for hardware devices ? Are there framework for embedded software even ? Any embedded software developer wanna share his insights here ?