They did it again!

Anon

Hi every one!

Again microsoft are pioneers!
How did they do the new menu navigation at microsoft.com site? the menu behaives as an object, u can drag it and drop it elswhere in the site!

Dose php handle susch a job?
Plz tell me that it can! 🙂

Yours
maj

toma42

er, php is a server side language. The functionality you're talking about is client side and has absolutly nothing to do with what server seved the pages.

Anon

Its called DHTML ... no doubt thats what they used...

This site

http://www.dhtmlcentral.com/

has alot of tutorials and scripts similar to that... right now its not working for me, but I'm sure thats the right address. Hopefully they didn't die!

cordex

What's so big about this, again?

It's Javascript and CSS.

Looks slick, but nothing I haven't seen before.

Anon

Microsoft isn't the greatest. It's been done.

Anon

that is not javascript and CSS. it's (nearly all) DHTML. tons of info on this sort of thing in the MSDN library. of course, most of it only works in IE.

Anon

open mouth, insert foot.

It is, after all, javascript and CSS.

M$ may not be smart, but they're smart enough not to use something as little supported as DHTML on their own homepage.

This does raise the question, though: if this is doable with existing languages, and even microsoft does it on their own site using those existing languages, why is Microsoft spending resources creating additional methodologies for solving the same problems?

I guess that's a discussion for another place, another time.

Anon

Actually your question is easy to answer.

They don't own/control the current languages/methods of doing this, so they need something that they control and can charge for. Cause lets face it, if you don't have to pay for it how good could it actually be? ;->

Anon

Yup, they did it again...
It doesn't work on IE on the Mac, their own software. Another half baked idea. I got something similar to work on a site for all v4+ browsers. Shoddy goods, send it back...

Anon

Hi!

You probably know that a while ago Microsoft made a special page for all those clients who had Netscape or Opera. It simply displayed "Please update your browser to IE so we can make friends again".
Seriously, this went on for a few days before Microsoft had to change the policy and admit those users. With an attitude, though...
Point is, it is possible to redirect clients to different pages depending on the client's browser. You can do it with any server side scripting language, even with client-side languages like Javascript. However, Microsoft has one site for all users, much to the dismay of people using Netscape and Opera. I tried their site with Opera, the menu in MSDN for instance does not behave the way it is intended. It doesn't even do the job on early releases of IE 4.0.

The menu is not the only thing they've introduced to keep off those pesky users who did not use their browser. For instance, the Search page in the Software section uses 100% DHTML to retrieve search results without reloading the page! Of course it only works on IE.

IE is a great browser that uses a lot of unapproved extensions to HTML and Javascript specs. There are incompatibilities in DHTML, CSS, Javascript; it also uses proprietary VBScript and ActiveX technology in the browser. This does give you a lot more freedom in coding - you can even do a nice HTML editor using ActiveX components like DHTMLEd from Microsoft.

DHTML in IE is actually a combination of CSS and Javascript. In contrast, in Netscape DHTML is achieved by using HTML + CSS + Netscape HTML extensions - Layers.

Jason is right, they use CSS + Javascript (or DHTML) to make the menu look so cool. Doesn't look as cool on Opera or Netscape, however.

Eventually, other browsers will die out. Opera costs money and a lot of Internet users just don't want to bother paying it (they did make a Shareware version with banners, which is a smart move).

Netscape decided their code wasn't perfect so they rewrote the engine and it took them 2 years to make a browser that wasn't a lot different for the end user (it did introduce themes and other gimmicks, but who cares for such things?).

IE, on the other hand, is getting more and more stable. If the .NET strategy of Microsoft is right and they will be able to reimplement it on Linux with the help of Linux developers, they will port the version to that system so Netscape may go out of business. Of course, the questions is - will Microsoft want to afford it? Usually this is very difficult - they have to rewrite ActiveX and a lot of other things to be compatible with current Linux Window managers (and with Linux developers jumping from one implementation to the other, will there ever be one unified Window manager for Linux - like Gnome?). Microsoft didn't even do it for Mac - and they already have IE ported to that platform.

For now, I suggest to use something achieved with simple Javascript and HTML - you can do wonders even with these pretty basic things.

Hope that helped! Sorry for being too verbose.

Best,
Stas

Anon

Just a quick fix to your post. Netscape is already out of business AOL bought them out, and isn't developing the Netscape browser anymore.

ayzee01

IE6 - Microsofts latest offering is actually a very stable(ish) and cool browser.

It is the first browser of its kind that actually supports CSS v1.0 and DOM v1.0 religously.

This is the way to go folks, a unified browser that actually sticks to some standards.

Apart from that, Microsoft sucks!

Oh and the issue of porting IE onto linux... Check out www.lindows.com and you'll soon see that it isnt an issue anymore.

Cheers for letting me babble.

Leon

Anon

Hi!

Unfortunately, I haven't yet seen IE6. I am pretty satisfied with IE 5, though I definitely like Opera 5's approach - having a multiple-document interface instead of having different windows that clutter up the screen. Opera is still pretty messy with memory and occasionally it runs out of it, especially with many windows open simultaneously.

I heard about lindows.com, and I hope it achieves its goals. However, Microsoft will do its best to give them a tough time keeping up with Windows. I know Lindows.com is going to make the new system based on the Wine manager, which is incompatible with some programs, browsers, etc. It will be definitely incompatible with old programs that deal with the computer resources directly, such as programs running in DOS mode, etc. I think people will also have to buy a licensed version of Windows, won't they?

Best,
Stas

ayzee01

Hey Stas,

Correct about Microsoft mate, they are already trying to make things awkward for lindows by saying their logo is too similar to the Microsoft Windows XP logo. But they must have serious vision problems at Microsoft as they look nothing like each other.

Microsoft are just worried that the release of lindows will take away some of their precious revenue from windows purchases so that's why they're unhappy.

I mean, why would companies want to spend thousands of pounds on a client/server setup when linux is free, is a great (better than NT) server platform and now for the clients there will be lindows which can run most windows programs. So even those who are used to running on Microsoft platforms can use office software etc. which they have been used to or trained in.

Lindows doesn't require a Windows installation as it has its own GUI. From what I can make of it, you simply install the windows programs on top of it as you would as if it were windows. The GUI also 'follows' the windows GUI for reasons of standardisation i guess, but this all adds up to the fact that users coming from a microsoft background can use linux with lindows and all the software they were used to and that saves on training and licensing fees. All in all, I think you'll agree this is a perfect recipe for business and will benefit many people from the SME to the large corporate venture.

Anyway, once again, thanks for letting me babble.

Cheers,

Leon.

Anon

Hi, Leon!

You're welcome. Babbling is in my family, too. :-)

I think the end-user is quite happy with Windows 98. Add a little bit of stability and Microsoft would lose another client for a few years from now. What I mean by that is that Lindows should not strive to follow Microsoft's every move.

The problem is, how far will Lindows go. I only hope Lindows has enough dedicated programmers and managers to direct their OS into the right stream. This is often a problem with Linux distros. I remember a funny story I got from one website "Today, at last, the official number of Linux distros has surpassed the number of Linux users". :-)

Another problem is the current Linux battles (multitude of distros, no generic Window manager, etc). All of these things push potential clients away from Linux. There are a lot of issues Lindows will have to face: for instance, a driver for certain hardware is not installed on Linux. What does the client do? For a middle-of-the-road computer user it is a pain in the neck to install it on Linux. Recompiling the kernel? Get me a computer whiz here!
Generally, I think it will be much harder for Lindows to polish Linux to the requirements of these computer users than to make a Linux Windows system.

Linux is a great system, but Microsoft has still got its grip on the majority of computer users. Hope it will change soon.

Best regards,
Stas

ayzee01

Hey Stas

You make some good points there sir, especially about linux having little in the way of standards and it being too complicated for the average user.

That is the only thing in my book that lets it down, my boss and I have discussed this on several occasions, he feels very strongly about the issue of standards within a system (as most bosses do). I think once that developers for linux actually realise that it would be more benefitial to the generic user if they were to implement a set of standards within software such as CTRL+C for copy, CTRL+V for paste or to have the standard menu system such as File, Edit, View, Tools Etc, linux will go much further and appeal to the mortal (non developer) users.

Cheers

Leon

Anon

Hello again, Leon!

Programming world is generally tough. Everyone tries to pull a blanket over himself. Open Source has introduced a great change in this area, but things like "Free / Open Source" and "Large Projects" still rarely coexist. Programmers have families to feed, too.

Lindows will still have to struggle with the inconsistencies in Linux as you mentioned, and it may be a never-ending battle.

I heard that Lindows will charge for the system. That's good, at least something to give them an incentive to develop good products. Reusing is always better than writing new programs, just as adapting Windows to Linux OS.

Need to drop by their web site to see what's coming.

Great discussion. We need to extend this thread a bit longer.

Best regards from Siberia,
Stas

ayzee01

Hey Stas,

Lindows are going to charge for their software which I am all in favour of but its only a measly $99 license. But on the other hand this small figure opens up the market to a wider audience and will probably play a key part in the distribution of lindows. Well, that and clever marketing.

As for lindows still having to deal with the inconsistencies of linux, i disagree. With the ability to run windows programs on a linux platform, we instantly gain the benefits of the standard features that are implemented into virtually every windows program thus creating some form of unity within the OS.

Happy days are on the way me thinks!

Cheers from the UK.

Leon.

P.S. I bet it's pretty chilly in Siberia eh?